Crosby or Ovechkin?

[mberube]

Not really, maybe people say that crosby is better than mario and lindros were at that age. Havent heard to much about wayne and don't think you will either, he is the greatest but have heard many say he is better than mario was at 18

What is quite a statement?

[Big Johnny69]

My bad, you are correct "Richard". Selanne recorded 132 pts his rookie season. For some reason I believed he got as many goals as assists. Oops, first sign of old age, the memory goes.

[The Shtick]

Oveshkin will probably win the Calder because he is more spectacular. To me he is not a more complete player and nothing like Gretz. Oveschkin is more of a selfish player. Not saying that he is selfish but it’s the only word I have to explain it. His ultimate goal is to score goals. Not a playmaker like Gretz. He’s more spectacular then Gretz was.

Now, that's comparing apples and oranges....

The other factor is Crosby had a media circus around him all year long. Not that much pressure around Ovechkin.

Who's fault was that??? Not OV-1's for sure.

All that aside, when was the last time we saw two rookies make 100pts in the same year. I think we will see the Gretz/Lemieux era all over again. Can’t wait to see these two teams fight it out in the playoffs in 3-4 years from now. Although opinions differ, these two talents are amazing for the young age that they are. Think about it, look at the scorers this year, look at all the GREAT player behind them on the leaderboard. It’s unbelievable for a 20 and 18 year-old.

Great battles to come.

Joe Juneau has 102 points with Boston the same year as Selanne has 132 points....

["Richard"]

I don't see washington making the playoffs in the next 3-4 years. PIT, yes I can see it. With malkin, crosby, fleury, and whoever they get this year.... this team is set. If they can just get out of that city, move the team to a place where they can make more money, get a new building and spend the cap max... they can probably keep that team together for a while. Crosby and Malkin will be max players down the road.. question is can you have two max players on your team? that only leave 60% for the rest of the guys and fleury will be making alot and whoever they draft because of the strength of this years draft will be making a lot as well (depending if they get first or second in the draft). PIT has a bright future ahead of them but probably not in PIT if they can't get that new building. I still can't get over the fact that CAR is a 100 point + team this year. I never thought that would happen. Cheecho scoring 56 goals so far? another shocker.

[Golfbum]

Cheecho scoring 56 goals so far? another shocker.[/quote]

Why would it shock you that Cheecoo has scored 56 goals? He has a lot of talent and look who his centreman is . Need I say more?
When you have one of the best power centres in the league setting you up then it makes it a lot easier to score goals. Cheechoo has a quick release and Thornton can put it right on the tape. Joe has been able to do that since I watched him play JR B at age 15.

[The Shtick]

Sorry dude (man, you have a lot of posts now since I left).....

The Penguins are far from being a contender. They will move, either to Hartford or Winnipeg, which will be the only bright light that they will see in the forseeable future. Malkin and Crosby will be great for the team, no doubt. Just take a quick look at the rest of the team and you will soon realize that it's a 5 year project. The Pens worst mistake this year was to let Eddie-O go.

Now, Washington had a team to build around, a REAL franchise player in Ovechkin. Crosby is immature and non-deserving of the accolades he gets now. Prove yourself first and let the $$$ follow.

[jonf]

Sorry dude (man, you have a lot of posts now since I left).....

The Penguins are far from being a contender. They will move, either to Hartford or Winnipeg, which will be the only bright light that they will see in the forseeable future. Malkin and Crosby will be great for the team, no doubt. Just take a quick look at the rest of the team and you will soon realize that it's a 5 year project. The Pens worst mistake this year was to let Eddie-O go.

Now, Washington had a team to build around, a REAL franchise player in Ovechkin. Crosby is immature and non-deserving of the accolades he gets now. Prove yourself first and let the $$$ follow.

Agreed that Pittsburgh is a building process. Two or three young superstarts do not make a team, especially when they're thoroughly offensive minded. The Pens need defence, and a second, third, and forth line. Getting Johnson to help on D would be a good start in this years draft.

As for Crosby not being a real franchise player, you're pushing it. Ovechkin is definitely a franchise player, no doubt about it. If you look at it though, so is Crosby. He's got just about 100 points at 18 yrs old. How 100 points isn't proving yourself, on a crappy team like Pittsburgh, I don't know. He lacks maturity and takes some stupid penalties, but so does every 18 year old player. He has shown that he has got the game to be a franchise player, he just needs to mature (which is why its really a shame that Lemiuex is gone). He as arguably been playing better after Lemiux Recchi and Palffy left - he has responded very well to the pressure and is preforming extremely well on a team where he now has NO support. The Pens really need to pick up a couple of veteran mentors over the summer if they really want to nurture all their young talent (keeping Eddie-O would definitely have helped).

["Richard"]

Golfbum, its a shocker beacuse thorton wasn't there from the start of the season. When I made my picks this year for my pool for top 5 goal scorers I took

KOVALCHUK
JAGR
GAGNE
HOSSA
GABORIK

So for me it is a bit of a shocker because I didn't guess for a second thorton would went up in SJ. Cheechoo had about 7 or 8 in 24 games goals before thoton got traded to SJ and now has 56! That means with Joe all season this dude would have been on pace to score 70 goals if you extrapolate from his average gpg with joe on this team.

I never said the pens were going to condend now, But they will before wash does. Wash doesn't have much better a line up than PIT does right now. They will both have cap space to pick up some good free agents if they choose but WASH still pays 1/2 of jagrs contract (I dont't think it counts against the cap whoever). I just think PIT is set up much better to be better down the road. Lots of young talent coming up, lots of cap space and already 3 guys who will (IMO) be superstars in this league

[jonf]

Why would it shock you that Cheecoo has scored 56 goals? He has a lot of talent and look who his centreman is . Need I say more?
When you have one of the best power centres in the league setting you up then it makes it a lot easier to score goals. Cheechoo has a quick release and Thornton can put it right on the tape. Joe has been able to do that since I watched him play JR B at age 15.

I don't see how Cheechoo is NOT a shocker. Can you honestly say that at the beginning of the season you were expecting a 40 goal season, let alone a 56 goal season? You have hit the nail on the head though....It would never have happened without Thornton, the hands down MVP

[jonf]

Golfbum, its a shocker beacuse thorton wasn't there from the start of the season. When I made my picks this year for my pool for top 5 goal scorers I took

KOVALCHUK
JAGR
GAGNE
HOSSA
GABORIK

Oh, there's you're problem....too many Europeans. but lets not get into that debate again

["Richard"]

I felt bad taking so many eruos. I just looked at the list of players and thought... this guys are going to score a lot of goals. I never would have thought
BRENDAN SHANAHAN would have 40 goals! He is old! I love the fact that almost 1/2 the top 20 goal scores are canadian but realistically who would of the canadians could I have taken to outscore any of the 4 non-canadians on my list other than heatly? I was going to go with JAROME IGINLA but didn't think Cal would do well this year and that he wouldn't play well.. I was 1/2 right

[jonf]

Ya, your list did turn out pretty well anyway. I would have dropped Gaborik for sure (wasn't he unsigned to start the year) and put in Heatley. Gagne was a really good choice and I don't even know if I would have thought of that for top 5 (I am ashamed to say). I might have taken someone like Lecavelier (he's due for a breakout year) but that wouldn't have worked that great this year. I would have been tempted to take Iggy too, and that wouldn't have worked well. Its interesting that many people are saying that he's having his best year, despite his lack of production. He's playing a better overall game, and coming up with more goals at the right time.

[davevandyk]

Agreed that Pittsburgh is a building process. Two or three young superstarts do not make a team, especially when they're thoroughly offensive minded. The Pens need defence, and a second, third, and forth line. Getting Johnson to help on D would be a good start in this years draft.

As for Crosby not being a real franchise player, you're pushing it. Ovechkin is definitely a franchise player, no doubt about it. If you look at it though, so is Crosby. He's got just about 100 points at 18 yrs old. How 100 points isn't proving yourself, on a crappy team like Pittsburgh, I don't know. He lacks maturity and takes some stupid penalties, but so does every 18 year old player. He has shown that he has got the game to be a franchise player, he just needs to mature (which is why its really a shame that Lemiuex is gone). He as arguably been playing better after Lemiux Recchi and Palffy left - he has responded very well to the pressure and is preforming extremely well on a team where he now has NO support. The Pens really need to pick up a couple of veteran mentors over the summer if they really want to nurture all their young talent (keeping Eddie-O would definitely have helped).

I really don't think a couple of veteran mentors would help on this team. That was the reason they picked up Recchi and LeClair wasn't it? The fact is that Crosby seemed to tire the old guys out with his immaturity and that was evident in the fact that by the end of the season, guys like Cairns and Orprik weren't even sticking up for Crosby when opponents were taking exceptions with him. Crosby needs to smarten up and show the team that he is willing to fight for them as much as they should be standing up for him, until that happens no veteran mentor will waste their last couple years helping out a complete baby!

[jonf]

I completely disagree. Lemieux was definitely the one designed to be his mentor - recchi and leclair were just bad pickups. Guys like Cairns and Orpik weren't sticking up for him at the beginning of the season, which is half the reason why he was taking so many penalties. He didn't have anyone who was willing to step in and beat the crap out of the guys who were harassing him. Orpi and Cairns are officially two of the worst "tough guys" to ever play the game. They should have brought up any Joe Shlub from the AHL, who would have done a MUCH better job of protecting him.

["Richard"]

I don't think you can call leclaire a bad pick at the time. Who at the start of the season thought PIT wasn't going to do well? certainly not the worst team in the nhl.. to get john leclair for 2.1M is a steal! Palfy? I personally thought they would atleast make the playoffs... but then again I don't know much abuot hockey as you guys seem to know. I just saw all those names and saw them spending money and figured on paper the team looked really good

[jonf]

2.1 for john leclair at this stage of his career is a terrible waste of money, expecially considering the new cap system. His back is perpetually broken, its been years since he's played anywhere close to a full season, and when he has been playing, he's been streaky at best. I agree that I thought they would do better, but they failed to do anything to help their defence core.

[mberube]

Now, that's comparing apples and oranges....

I was not comparing Gretz and Ovechkin. I was just reply to previous posts.

Who's fault was that??? Not OV-1's for sure.

Are you saying that it’s Sid’s fault? I was just stating that he is two years younger and played with incomparable pressure. Still only 5 points separates with one game to go.

Joe Juneau has 102 points with Boston the same year as Selanne has 132 points....

You can’t compare Joe Juneau’s talent to Ovechkin and Crosby. Joe was a nobody before playing in the Olympic two years before he was drafted. AO and SC burnt their respective leagues throughout there junior careers.

[mberube]

I really don't think a couple of veteran mentors would help on this team. That was the reason they picked up Recchi and LeClair wasn't it? The fact is that Crosby seemed to tire the old guys out with his immaturity and that was evident in the fact that by the end of the season, guys like Cairns and Orprik weren't even sticking up for Crosby when opponents were taking exceptions with him. Crosby needs to smarten up and show the team that he is willing to fight for them as much as they should be standing up for him, until that happens no veteran mentor will waste their last couple years helping out a complete baby!

That’s not what Recchi said.

[B Nation]

You can’t compare Joe Juneau’s talent to Ovechkin and Crosby. Joe was a nobody before playing in the Olympic two years before he was drafted. AO and SC burnt their respective leagues throughout there junior careers.

I think his point was that Joe Juneau wasn't that good, and just took advantage of a very offensive NHL. While its true Selanne scored 132 points, he finished 5th in the NHL in scoring 39 points behind the leader.

That year (92-93) set a record for most 100 point getters and 50 goal scorers. Pittsburgh had 4 guys with over 100 points on their team alone.

What these two rookies are doing this year is VERY impressive.