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Thread: Crosby or Ovechkin?
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11-14-2005 09:20 PM #61
of course there will be more press on Ovechkin in Russia than Crosby. But the point Dan is making, i think, is that they vote in NA, not Russia.
As much as Dan was saying its hard for goalies and dmen to win, in the last 4 years, 2 goalies and 1 d-man has won! Raycroft, Jackman or Nabokov.
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11-15-2005 07:08 AM #62
I know what Dan's point is, but does it not make sense then if I take your exact sentence:
Of course there will be more press on Crosby in Canada than Ovechkin. But the point Denny is making, i think, is they vote in NA, not Russia!Last edited by dbleber; 11-15-2005 at 09:04 AM.
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11-15-2005 08:47 AM #63Originally Posted by broken27
As for marketable publicity. We are in North America and it’s totally normal that Crosby is on the front page. You are a journalist, you should understand that!!! If both players were playing in Russia it would be the other way around and that’s normal. Will that hand the Calder to Crosby on a silver plate? I think not. If he wins, he will have earned it and the same goes for Ovechkin. Especially if he scores a ridicules amount of goals.
You are no better that the PHWA that you predict we automatically give the Calder to Crosby. You are just giving it to Ovechkin.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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11-15-2005 01:12 PM #64
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What About Phaneuf?
Seems to me everyone is wrapped up in this Crosby/Ovechkin arguement, which one will win the Calder Cup for Rookie of the Year.
Meanwhile no one has even mentioned another good Canadian Boy, Dion Phaneuf. 20 Games, 5 G, 8A and he is +1. Neither Crosby or Ovechkin are + in the Plus/Minus area of the stats.
Heck Alexander Steen of the Leafs is no slouch either with 13 points in 18 games and he is +3.
If you are basing your Calder Cup winner solely on points then so be it. I would rather look at the all around stats, and try to figure out who helped their team more in the long run during the season.
If I had a vote and it was time to vote, I would be voting for Phaneuf. A Rookie D with points and + in the Plus Minus, he would have my vote in a heartbeat.My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.
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11-15-2005 01:22 PM #65
+/- is the most overrated stat in hockey. Crosby and Ovechkin play for crappy teams. Phaneuf plays for a good team. Find me a player in the top 30 in +/- playing for a losing team.
Who is helping their team more than these two guys? They're both leading their teams in scoring and Ovechkin has a team of no names to play with. Both are averaging over a point a game.
In another year, Phaneuf would warrant some strong votes, but barring serious injury, this is likely a 2 horse race.I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.
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11-16-2005 02:41 AM #66Originally Posted by mberube
Originally Posted by mberube
Dan
PS - In the last 10 years as a group only indicates to me where the new talent is starting to come in from... Not putting down any other hockey program, but things are getting far more even overall...[URL=http://www.sportsfiend.ca/]Sportsfiend.ca - Make You Opinion Into News...
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11-23-2005 09:25 AM #67Originally Posted by broken27
That in my book says that our country boys play good hockey.
MikeStrive for perfection, but never expect it!
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11-23-2005 09:33 AM #68
Well the first show down between these two awsome players clearly had Crosby on top. He just had a better game in every aspect of the game and in case nobody else is watching, Crosby is slowing starting to pull away now that he has the scoring touch and the passing game going in high gear!!!
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11-23-2005 10:04 AM #69
WOW i think Crosby is so overrated! I don't know if it is the total overload of "Crosby is the greatest" from all the sportscasts, but Ovechkin is the real deal!! Ovechkin scores, hits and has great vision. Crosby has great vision and great linemates, therefore he gets the extra assists.
I personally feel that Ovechkin is much better, but just will not get the credit his deserves, he's not the "Next Gretzky"! Ovechkin is the ideal player for the new NHL, he's a power forward in the footsteps of Bertuzzi and Thorton.
I personally think Ovechkin will be the much better "complete" player, but Crosby might be the better "scorer".
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11-23-2005 10:25 AM #70Originally Posted by davevandyk
We are not saying that Ovechkin isn’t good. We are just saying that Crosby is better at the moment. Still 60 games to go.
Note that Crosby just came up from the juniors. Ovechkin has been playing pro hockey with men for the past two years.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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11-23-2005 10:42 AM #71
sorry i am just not sold on Crosby, i think he has great linemates. Sure he is great but it does help with the linemates. Look at Alfie, he wasn't really tearing up the league until Murray put him on the line with Heatley and Spezza. Great player, but much better with a good line!!
I was just making the point that Overchkin is much closer to a complete player than Crosby is!
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11-23-2005 11:17 AM #72
Being on a good line can be helpful if you can keep up. Alfredson is playing great and it does help that he is being fed by two good players, but if being on a good line is the only reason for sucess then why did Bochenski (sp) get sent down to the minors when he was playing on the same line? Crosby gets the points he gets because he knows how to use this good line, I think Ovechkin would still try and keep the puck for himself so that he could score and do one of those stupid after goal celebrations he does, no matter what line he was on. Excuss can be made and I admit that the media is over killing Crosby's coverage but can you blame them, it's just to exciting! And just for the record, TSN Sportscenter also covers Ovechkin and I don't see any real time coverage difference between the two.
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11-23-2005 12:14 PM #73Originally Posted by davevandyk
So who's better? You can argue till the cows come home, but I'm simply saying that I think they are two different types of players who can and will impact their teams (and the NHL as a whole) in different ways.
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11-23-2005 12:47 PM #74
you are right, they are two totally different types of players. Its like comparing Iginla and Alfreddson. One is a power forward who is not afraid to hit and get hit, while the other seems to have more finesse skills and be in the right place all the time.
What i meant by complete player is that Ovechkin not only scores, but he doesn't mind getting tough, throwing his weight around. Crosby could bulk up and become that as well, but i just don't see that happening. I think Ovechkin gets the team going not only with the blade but also with the body.
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11-23-2005 01:32 PM #75
I have admittedly been impressed with ovechkin's physical play - didn't expect it at all. Crosby has been playing just as physical a game as ovechkin though, there's no great difference. If you're judging based on who is the more complete player, i don't see how you choose ovechkin over crosby. He has the finesse moves that ovechkin does (that was a wicked goal last night), can pass it like nobody's business (did you see that assist last night), can take the body when needed, and draws an incredible number of penalties because the other team just can't handle him. He could use some work on the defensive end, that's for sure, but if you're judging the complete package, i think you've shortchanged crosby. He IS the incredible talent that the media makes him out to be, which is a shame, because it does get annoying, and does make it harder to see how incredible he actually is.
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11-23-2005 01:56 PM #76
I don't know if Crosby can hit like Ovechkin, for a fancy pants guy Ovechkin hits a ton. Even in a couple of years when Crosby's frames starts to fill out, I don't think you will see throwing the body like that. Crosby does draw a lot of penalties against him because he is so fast and shifty but I hope he doesn't get into the acting thing to much because sometimes he acts like he just got shot! Me, I love a player who takes one in the chops but still drives to the net and worries about *ing at the ref after the play is finished. No matter how you cut it both of these kids are doing exactly what everyone hoped they would and thts getting people in the seats and guys like us excited to watch and argue about hockey. Gonna be a great season!
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11-23-2005 03:33 PM #77
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Originally Posted by dbleber
As for Crosby's completeness, I must say I've not seen him play an entire game this year, but watching several of his televised junior games last year, he really impressed me with how good he was in his end of the rink - far better than Gretzky or Lemieux ever were in that regard.
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11-25-2005 09:47 AM #78Originally Posted by powerleftyStrive for perfection, but never expect it!
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11-25-2005 10:21 AM #79Originally Posted by powerlefty
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12-23-2005 07:57 AM #80
Big 4 point night for Ovechkin. Well done.
Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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03-10-2006 09:16 AM #81Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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03-10-2006 09:32 AM #82Originally Posted by mberube
Think about all the scorers, Jagr, Kovalchuk, Alfie, Staal and even the ones of the past, how many of them hit as well as this kid. I can't wait to see this kid when he gets a team around him, he just seems to love to play the game.
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03-10-2006 12:00 PM #83
That video was pretty cool.
"Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual"
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04-14-2006 02:02 AM #84
After tonight's action, where Ovechkin notched his 50th goal (only the second rookie to do so) and Crosby came up with a four point game and reached 97 pts for the season (youngest ever to reach 90, btw), I think its time to resurrect this thread. Two months ago, if anyone asked, Ovechkin would be the choice for the Calder, no question. I still think he's the favourite, but Crosby sure has made a race of it. I think these guys are going to be battling for supremacy for years to come, and it will be great for the game. Guys like Phaneuf, Lundqvist, and Svatos (before the injury) certainly make this one of the most promising group of rookies ever. If you look at all 5 of those players, any one could have won the calder in a given year. Hockey is alive and well. WOOHOOOOOOOOO
Last edited by jonf; 04-14-2006 at 02:36 AM.
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04-14-2006 06:06 AM #85
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Ovechkin is only the second rookie to score 50 goals and have 100 pts in the same season. He is actually the 4th rookie to notch 50 goals. Selanne with 76, Bossy with 53 and Nieuwendyk with 51 have all scored 50 before him.
Selanne was the other rookie to notch 50 goals and 100 pts in the same season when he scored 76 goals and had, if I'm not mistaken, 152 pts.
Gretzky should be included in this elite company, but due to a ruling by the NHL he was never classified as a rookie. But he is still the only player to win Hart trophy in his first season in the NHL."A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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04-14-2006 07:34 AM #86
I still don't think there is a contest here. Ovechkin is a show stopper and is the best rookie out there right now. To me, if i had to choose whether to go and see him play once, or see Crosby twice, i would go see Ovechkin without a doubt! I think Crosby is really good, but to me he's not the dynamic player like a Gretzky or Ovechkin, where you go home after a game and all you can talk about is how a kid could do the things that Ovechkin does. Add to that is the fact that Ovechkin is a complete player, he scores, assists and plays a physical game, i love this kid!!
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04-14-2006 08:13 AM #87
Oveshkin will probably win the Calder because he is more spectacular. To me he is not a more complete player and nothing like Gretz. Oveschkin is more of a selfish player. Not saying that he is selfish but it’s the only word I have to explain it. His ultimate goal is to score goals. Not a playmaker like Gretz. He’s more spectacular then Gretz was.
Crosby is more a Gretz type player. As much as Ovechkin scores unbelievable goals, Crosby will setup amazing plays and score great goals. In the long run Crosby will probably be a better player cause he seems to care more about the result of his team then how many point he made in the game. Oveschkin doesn’t seem to care that he lost 7-3 as long as he scored all three goals. The other major factor is Crosby is 18 and out junior hockey last year , Ovechkin is 20 and out of pro league. What will Crosby look like in two year and with Malkin?? The other factor is Crosby had a media circus around him all year long. Not that much pressure around Ovechkin.
All that aside, when was the last time we saw two rookies make 100pts in the same year. I think we will see the Gretz/Lemieux era all over again. Can’t wait to see these two teams fight it out in the playoffs in 3-4 years from now. Although opinions differ, these two talents are amazing for the young age that they are. Think about it, look at the scorers this year, look at all the GREAT player behind them on the leaderboard. It’s unbelievable for a 20 and 18 year-old.
Great battles to come.Strive for perfection, but never expect it!
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04-14-2006 08:16 AM #88
Well let's be realistic. This will be great if and O N L Y if the NHL sticks to its guns and keeps the 'new' NHL going. If they go back to calling things the way they did back in '03, it'll be a waste of both their talents.
Donny Vantage NFL Guru, since 1974
Money won is twice as sweet as money earned
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04-14-2006 03:37 PM #89"Richard"GuestOriginally Posted by Geoff Johnston
sid the kid needs 3 more points to become the youngest player EVER to reach 100 points. He is 23 months younger than ovechkin and if you think that is scary?? Since malkin was taken after ovechkin people are saying that he is actually a better player than ozechkin is. Now that is a scary thought! Sid, malkin, marc andre fleury and perhaps espiseto if pit wins the draft... AGAIN!
Now this is where it gets interesting, there is a computer model out there that gives more weight to game winning goals, game tieing goals, go ahead goals and first goals of the game than all other goals, if gives points for assits on those goals and so on... and by system Oveckin is by far the MVP of th league. Not saying that I agree with that system and if it was upto me, I gave it to thorton, the guy turned cheecho into a 50 goal scorer and will win the scoring title oh yeah and turned the team around.
Rookie of the year will go to A.O. even if sid passes him in scoring which will not happen
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04-14-2006 03:45 PM #90"Richard"GuestOriginally Posted by mberube
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