Crosby or Ovechkin?

[davevandyk]

of course there will be more press on Ovechkin in Russia than Crosby. But the point Dan is making, i think, is that they vote in NA, not Russia.

As much as Dan was saying its hard for goalies and dmen to win, in the last 4 years, 2 goalies and 1 d-man has won! Raycroft, Jackman or Nabokov.

[dbleber]

I know what Dan's point is, but does it not make sense then if I take your exact sentence:

Of course there will be more press on Crosby in Canada than Ovechkin. But the point Denny is making, i think, is they vote in NA, not Russia!

[mberube]

So, if you selectively edit the winners of the Calder trophy you can create some illusion that there are more non-Canadian winners?

http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/trophies/calder.html

Check the whole list and tell me if your little theory still holds any water...

As Hank pointed out, how can you justify Crosby getting rookie of the month over Vorobiev? Don't think this is some witchhunt. I'm talking about the problem we're going to have becuase there is SO MUCH press on Crosby that it's hard to think much of anyone else.

How many stories has TSN run on Ovechkin? Not including game reports.... 3? 5?

On Crosby? 100? 200?

There's no contest if this comes down to a vote by media.

Dan

I did not “selectively edit the winners of the Calder trophy”. I took 7 non-Canadian winners in the last 10 years. Only 3 Canadians won the Calder in 10 years. Tell me where I falsified the selection. It’s the same list as yours.

As for marketable publicity. We are in North America and it’s totally normal that Crosby is on the front page. You are a journalist, you should understand that!!! If both players were playing in Russia it would be the other way around and that’s normal. Will that hand the Calder to Crosby on a silver plate? I think not. If he wins, he will have earned it and the same goes for Ovechkin. Especially if he scores a ridicules amount of goals.

You are no better that the PHWA that you predict we automatically give the Calder to Crosby. You are just giving it to Ovechkin.

[Golfbum]

Seems to me everyone is wrapped up in this Crosby/Ovechkin arguement, which one will win the Calder Cup for Rookie of the Year.
Meanwhile no one has even mentioned another good Canadian Boy, Dion Phaneuf. 20 Games, 5 G, 8A and he is +1. Neither Crosby or Ovechkin are + in the Plus/Minus area of the stats.
Heck Alexander Steen of the Leafs is no slouch either with 13 points in 18 games and he is +3.
If you are basing your Calder Cup winner solely on points then so be it. I would rather look at the all around stats, and try to figure out who helped their team more in the long run during the season.
If I had a vote and it was time to vote, I would be voting for Phaneuf. A Rookie D with points and + in the Plus Minus, he would have my vote in a heartbeat.

[jeffc]

+/- is the most overrated stat in hockey. Crosby and Ovechkin play for crappy teams. Phaneuf plays for a good team. Find me a player in the top 30 in +/- playing for a losing team.

Who is helping their team more than these two guys? They're both leading their teams in scoring and Ovechkin has a team of no names to play with. Both are averaging over a point a game.

In another year, Phaneuf would warrant some strong votes, but barring serious injury, this is likely a 2 horse race.

[broken27]

I did not “selectively edit the winners of the Calder trophy”. I took 7 non-Canadian winners in the last 10 years. Only 3 Canadians won the Calder in 10 years. Tell me where I falsified the selection. It’s the same list as yours.

Where did you falsify? From your original post:

As for Sid winning because he is Canadian, well that’s typical in this forum. Funny causes there are more non-Canadian winners:

· Nobokov
· Gomez
· Drury
· Samsonov
· Berard
· Alfredson
· Forsburg

Seem fair? Maybe I misunderstood because you never qualified your list?

Dan
PS - In the last 10 years as a group only indicates to me where the new talent is starting to come in from... Not putting down any other hockey program, but things are getting far more even overall...

[mberube]

Dan
PS - In the last 10 years as a group only indicates to me where the new talent is starting to come in from... Not putting down any other hockey program, but things are getting far more even overall...

Maybe for the last 10 years but the last three are Canadian. If it continues like this we will make it 4 years in a row.

That in my book says that our country boys play good hockey.

Mike

[dbleber]

Well the first show down between these two awsome players clearly had Crosby on top. He just had a better game in every aspect of the game and in case nobody else is watching, Crosby is slowing starting to pull away now that he has the scoring touch and the passing game going in high gear!!!

[davevandyk]

WOW i think Crosby is so overrated! I don't know if it is the total overload of "Crosby is the greatest" from all the sportscasts, but Ovechkin is the real deal!! Ovechkin scores, hits and has great vision. Crosby has great vision and great linemates, therefore he gets the extra assists.

I personally feel that Ovechkin is much better, but just will not get the credit his deserves, he's not the "Next Gretzky"! Ovechkin is the ideal player for the new NHL, he's a power forward in the footsteps of Bertuzzi and Thorton.

I personally think Ovechkin will be the much better "complete" player, but Crosby might be the better "scorer".

[mberube]

WOW i think Crosby is so overrated! I don't know if it is the total overload of "Crosby is the greatest" from all the sportscasts, but Ovechkin is the real deal!! Ovechkin scores, hits and has great vision. Crosby has great vision and great linemates, therefore he gets the extra assists.

I personally feel that Ovechkin is much better, but just will not get the credit his deserves, he's not the "Next Gretzky"! Ovechkin is the ideal player for the new NHL, he's a power forward in the footsteps of Bertuzzi and Thorton.

I personally think Ovechkin will be the much better "complete" player, but Crosby might be the better "scorer".

If you make points cause you have good line mates and not because you are good, what justifies that you the top scorer of your team and 16 overall in the NHL. Most of his assists are amazing feeds that a forth line player would have obviously scored. Granted that Palffy is at the right place cause he is good and knows that Sid will find him but it takes a good player to putt the puck where it needs to be to make that goal possible. The spin around back pass he made to Palffy last night was nothing short of amazing. Don’t forget, this kid is only 18 years old and playing on a team that is not making the playoff at the moment.

We are not saying that Ovechkin isn’t good. We are just saying that Crosby is better at the moment. Still 60 games to go.

Note that Crosby just came up from the juniors. Ovechkin has been playing pro hockey with men for the past two years.

[davevandyk]

sorry i am just not sold on Crosby, i think he has great linemates. Sure he is great but it does help with the linemates. Look at Alfie, he wasn't really tearing up the league until Murray put him on the line with Heatley and Spezza. Great player, but much better with a good line!!

I was just making the point that Overchkin is much closer to a complete player than Crosby is!

[dbleber]

Being on a good line can be helpful if you can keep up. Alfredson is playing great and it does help that he is being fed by two good players, but if being on a good line is the only reason for sucess then why did Bochenski (sp) get sent down to the minors when he was playing on the same line? Crosby gets the points he gets because he knows how to use this good line, I think Ovechkin would still try and keep the puck for himself so that he could score and do one of those stupid after goal celebrations he does, no matter what line he was on. Excuss can be made and I admit that the media is over killing Crosby's coverage but can you blame them, it's just to exciting! And just for the record, TSN Sportscenter also covers Ovechkin and I don't see any real time coverage difference between the two.

[jbrace]

I personally think Ovechkin will be the much better "complete" player, but Crosby might be the better "scorer".

I find this point of view interesting because I feel the totally opposite. My office mates and I have been "discussing" the Crosby-Ovechkin situation regularly all season with the "who's better" argument pretty much split right down the middle. But one thing we all seem to agree upon is that it's Crosby who is the more "complete" player and Ovechkin is more of a natural goal scorer. At least from what I've observed so far watching the games on Centre Ice. The way I look at it is that if I were a GM and had to pick between the two, it would come down to what kind of player I wanted. If I needed a pure goal scorer to help out the offense, it would be Ovechkin. But if I was looking for a better all around player and (more imortantly to me) a future leader that I can build around, then Crosby would easily be my choice. Certainly not to take anything away from Ovechkin as I do think he's good all around too.

So who's better? You can argue till the cows come home, but I'm simply saying that I think they are two different types of players who can and will impact their teams (and the NHL as a whole) in different ways.

[davevandyk]

you are right, they are two totally different types of players. Its like comparing Iginla and Alfreddson. One is a power forward who is not afraid to hit and get hit, while the other seems to have more finesse skills and be in the right place all the time.

What i meant by complete player is that Ovechkin not only scores, but he doesn't mind getting tough, throwing his weight around. Crosby could bulk up and become that as well, but i just don't see that happening. I think Ovechkin gets the team going not only with the blade but also with the body.

[jonf]

I have admittedly been impressed with ovechkin's physical play - didn't expect it at all. Crosby has been playing just as physical a game as ovechkin though, there's no great difference. If you're judging based on who is the more complete player, i don't see how you choose ovechkin over crosby. He has the finesse moves that ovechkin does (that was a wicked goal last night), can pass it like nobody's business (did you see that assist last night), can take the body when needed, and draws an incredible number of penalties because the other team just can't handle him. He could use some work on the defensive end, that's for sure, but if you're judging the complete package, i think you've shortchanged crosby. He IS the incredible talent that the media makes him out to be, which is a shame, because it does get annoying, and does make it harder to see how incredible he actually is.

[dbleber]

I don't know if Crosby can hit like Ovechkin, for a fancy pants guy Ovechkin hits a ton. Even in a couple of years when Crosby's frames starts to fill out, I don't think you will see throwing the body like that. Crosby does draw a lot of penalties against him because he is so fast and shifty but I hope he doesn't get into the acting thing to much because sometimes he acts like he just got shot! Me, I love a player who takes one in the chops but still drives to the net and worries about *ing at the ref after the play is finished. No matter how you cut it both of these kids are doing exactly what everyone hoped they would and thts getting people in the seats and guys like us excited to watch and argue about hockey. Gonna be a great season!

[powerlefty]

I don't know if Crosby can hit like Ovechkin, for a fancy pants guy Ovechkin hits a ton. Even in a couple of years when Crosby's frames starts to fill out, I don't think you will see throwing the body like that. Crosby does draw a lot of penalties against him because he is so fast and shifty but I hope he doesn't get into the acting thing to much because sometimes he acts like he just got shot! Me, I love a player who takes one in the chops but still drives to the net and worries about *ing at the ref after the play is finished. No matter how you cut it both of these kids are doing exactly what everyone hoped they would and thts getting people in the seats and guys like us excited to watch and argue about hockey. Gonna be a great season!

Interesting note on the hitting. Crosby is the one rumoured to have put Ovechkin out of the World Juniors last year with a good, clean, open ice hit.

As for Crosby's completeness, I must say I've not seen him play an entire game this year, but watching several of his televised junior games last year, he really impressed me with how good he was in his end of the rink - far better than Gretzky or Lemieux ever were in that regard.

[mberube]

watching several of his televised junior games last year, he really impressed me with how good he was in his end of the rink - far better than Gretzky or Lemieux ever were in that regard.

That’s quite a statement.

[dbleber]

Interesting note on the hitting. Crosby is the one rumoured to have put Ovechkin out of the World Juniors last year with a good, clean, open ice hit.

As for Crosby's completeness, I must say I've not seen him play an entire game this year, but watching several of his televised junior games last year, he really impressed me with how good he was in his end of the rink - far better than Gretzky or Lemieux ever were in that regard.

Having watched the World Jr's i would have to disagree. I still think to this day that there was nothing wrong with Ovechkin except for being a sore loser. Did you see him floppin on the ice and then he was out the next shift? Brutal!

[mberube]

Big 4 point night for Ovechkin. Well done.

[mberube]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...41&q=alexander

[davevandyk]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...41&q=alexander

That was wicked. This kid is truly amazing, and easily has won the Calder trophy. If he was on a better team i truly believe he would have run away with the Hart trophy as well. If i had a kid just starting hockey, i would just get him to watch that video. Ovechkin just seems to love scoring and hitting, he is maybe the most complete player hockey has seen in a long time.

Think about all the scorers, Jagr, Kovalchuk, Alfie, Staal and even the ones of the past, how many of them hit as well as this kid. I can't wait to see this kid when he gets a team around him, he just seems to love to play the game.

[sharkhark]

That video was pretty cool.

[jonf]

After tonight's action, where Ovechkin notched his 50th goal (only the second rookie to do so) and Crosby came up with a four point game and reached 97 pts for the season (youngest ever to reach 90, btw), I think its time to resurrect this thread. Two months ago, if anyone asked, Ovechkin would be the choice for the Calder, no question. I still think he's the favourite, but Crosby sure has made a race of it. I think these guys are going to be battling for supremacy for years to come, and it will be great for the game. Guys like Phaneuf, Lundqvist, and Svatos (before the injury) certainly make this one of the most promising group of rookies ever. If you look at all 5 of those players, any one could have won the calder in a given year. Hockey is alive and well. WOOHOOOOOOOOO

[Big Johnny69]

Ovechkin is only the second rookie to score 50 goals and have 100 pts in the same season. He is actually the 4th rookie to notch 50 goals. Selanne with 76, Bossy with 53 and Nieuwendyk with 51 have all scored 50 before him.

Selanne was the other rookie to notch 50 goals and 100 pts in the same season when he scored 76 goals and had, if I'm not mistaken, 152 pts.

Gretzky should be included in this elite company, but due to a ruling by the NHL he was never classified as a rookie. But he is still the only player to win Hart trophy in his first season in the NHL.

[davevandyk]

I still don't think there is a contest here. Ovechkin is a show stopper and is the best rookie out there right now. To me, if i had to choose whether to go and see him play once, or see Crosby twice, i would go see Ovechkin without a doubt! I think Crosby is really good, but to me he's not the dynamic player like a Gretzky or Ovechkin, where you go home after a game and all you can talk about is how a kid could do the things that Ovechkin does. Add to that is the fact that Ovechkin is a complete player, he scores, assists and plays a physical game, i love this kid!!

[mberube]

Oveshkin will probably win the Calder because he is more spectacular. To me he is not a more complete player and nothing like Gretz. Oveschkin is more of a selfish player. Not saying that he is selfish but it’s the only word I have to explain it. His ultimate goal is to score goals. Not a playmaker like Gretz. He’s more spectacular then Gretz was.

Crosby is more a Gretz type player. As much as Ovechkin scores unbelievable goals, Crosby will setup amazing plays and score great goals. In the long run Crosby will probably be a better player cause he seems to care more about the result of his team then how many point he made in the game. Oveschkin doesn’t seem to care that he lost 7-3 as long as he scored all three goals. The other major factor is Crosby is 18 and out junior hockey last year , Ovechkin is 20 and out of pro league. What will Crosby look like in two year and with Malkin?? The other factor is Crosby had a media circus around him all year long. Not that much pressure around Ovechkin.

All that aside, when was the last time we saw two rookies make 100pts in the same year. I think we will see the Gretz/Lemieux era all over again. Can’t wait to see these two teams fight it out in the playoffs in 3-4 years from now. Although opinions differ, these two talents are amazing for the young age that they are. Think about it, look at the scorers this year, look at all the GREAT player behind them on the leaderboard. It’s unbelievable for a 20 and 18 year-old.

Great battles to come.

[fundonny]

Well let's be realistic. This will be great if and O N L Y if the NHL sticks to its guns and keeps the 'new' NHL going. If they go back to calling things the way they did back in '03, it'll be a waste of both their talents.

["Richard"]

Ovechkin is only the second rookie to score 50 goals and have 100 pts in the same season. He is actually the 4th rookie to notch 50 goals. Selanne with 76, Bossy with 53 and Nieuwendyk with 51 have all scored 50 before him.

Selanne was the other rookie to notch 50 goals and 100 pts in the same season when he scored 76 goals and had, if I'm not mistaken, 152 pts.

Gretzky should be included in this elite company, but due to a ruling by the NHL he was never classified as a rookie. But he is still the only player to win Hart trophy in his first season in the NHL.

I'm pretty sure it was 132

sid the kid needs 3 more points to become the youngest player EVER to reach 100 points. He is 23 months younger than ovechkin and if you think that is scary?? Since malkin was taken after ovechkin people are saying that he is actually a better player than ozechkin is. Now that is a scary thought! Sid, malkin, marc andre fleury and perhaps espiseto if pit wins the draft... AGAIN!

Now this is where it gets interesting, there is a computer model out there that gives more weight to game winning goals, game tieing goals, go ahead goals and first goals of the game than all other goals, if gives points for assits on those goals and so on... and by system Oveckin is by far the MVP of th league. Not saying that I agree with that system and if it was upto me, I gave it to thorton, the guy turned cheecho into a 50 goal scorer and will win the scoring title oh yeah and turned the team around.

Rookie of the year will go to A.O. even if sid passes him in scoring which will not happen

["Richard"]

That’s quite a statement.

Not really, maybe people say that crosby is better than mario and lindros were at that age. Havent heard to much about wayne and don't think you will either, he is the greatest but have heard many say he is better than mario was at 18