Bye Bye Hossa... Hello Heatley!!!

[jeffc]

I have to disagree. this trade would not have happened two years ago. No way Jose.

[LobWedge]

forget it. Dan sees things one way and one way only. you have more chance convincing the wall you sit beside of anything.

That's the cool thing about opinions. Everyone's allowed to have one, whether you agree with it or not.

[LobWedge]

I have to disagree. this trade would not have happened two years ago. No way Jose.

Two years ago Heatley was a rookie, Muckler had just arrived in Ottawa, and Murray wasn't even on the radar. Oh yeah, and the Sens were 5 minutes from declaring bankruptcy.

[broken27]

You don't want to debate Dan. You want everyone to say that Europeon hockey is better the N.A hockey and that you are the God of hockey knowledge. I am not such a moron that I can't see talent in all players. Hossa, Kovulchuk, Spezza Nash... whoever are great talents but if they can't take the bump and grid of hockey then I don't care what country they come from......get out of the game. Where do you think all the stick work and clutch and grap came from? You bring back the respect to the ice and it is a much better game for all who play.

I have played in a lot of different leagues and the no hit leagues that try and have the open ice, fast game are the ones you get hurt the most in because of the stick work. Getting slammed into the boards doesn't hurt it just slows you down, it's the open ice ones that kill you and even that is nothing compared to some of the slash work you see across the pond. The open ice, fast game that the NHL wants to bring back to hockey is really only a look back to the past. Scoring was up in the 80's and the game was open. Guys got bigger, faster and they took away a lot of the toughness in the game. Now guys have no respect for each other and are not scared when they do something stupid. Let the boys police themselves and the game will get better.

Missed this, but feel it is worthy of a response.

Do I want everyone to say European hockey is better than North American hockey? No, as for the most part I don't believe that to be true. Well, the calibre of players in the leagues over there isn't as high as the NHL anyways. I enjoy the game style much more, certainly, and gauging by a lot of posts in the past about people finding the Olympics the most fun to watch, I'd say I'm not alone in that.... What seems odd to me is that there doesn't seem to be ANY case where someone other than me says ANY European is better than ANY Canadian that is being discussed. None of them have heart, grit, character, leadership abilities... That seems to be the general sentiment throughout most discussions that I've been part of (here and in person)... It's impossible to make any sense of that for me, so I try to take on the other side of it. Unfortunately it always degrades because it's impossible to fight a 1 vs 50 battle when realistically it's all about opinion anyways.

As for hockey itself, I didn't get to play when I was really young because my parents were all freaked about this tumour in my hip, which has since gone away. I eventually convinced them that playing organized hockey was much safer than unsupervised and unprotected shinny outdoor hockey. They agreed. I played until the end of highschool, and peaked as a second line left winger. Never had the size (or capacity to add it) to go any further, but played in rec leagues ever since. This year I'll be playing with the Czech and Slovak boys in a pickup fun league. Ironically, I'm about as North American a player as you'll find, but like I said, I wasn't all that good. I was chippy, abrasive and got in a lot of scraps. Never scored much, but picked up assists by having great linemates who were really good (including Viktor Kafka, another Czech who was my center).

I also don't care where the guy comes from, if you can't take it, get out. But, there is a gross misconception that Europeans are soft in this respect. Forsberg, Jagr, Straka (broke his back!), Lang, Fedorov, etc... THOSE are the guys I'm talking about when I talk about Europeans, not Nilson, Kvasha, or Petrovicky... Stick work happens now, and I agree it's crappy. But don't try to pin it on Europeans, unless you mean that their speed forced defencemen to use their sticks to cover guys like Makarov and Stastny. Most famous stick incidents are seemingly mainly North Americans... Gary Suter on Kariya, MacSorely on Brashear, Hunter's famous 21-game suspension... I suppose Perezhogin's recent swipe at that guy in the AHL (?) this season will come up, but recall that the other guy took the first swing and missed. It doesn't matter. This stuff CAN, as you said, be policed by the players as it has been in the past. But do it in combination with the new "open ice" rules, as the player size increase needs to be offset somehow.

Finally, geez this is getting long, I'll apologize for calling you a moron in the same sentence as I critisized YOUR debating abilities... Ironic now that I re-read it. Not very kosher on my part, and though I retract the word, I still stand behind some of what I said.

Cheers, I'm done unless someone posts again to me directly....

dan

[jeffc]

Regardless of the management involved this or a similar deal is really what I meant.

Hossa was a cornerstone a couple of years ago, but too many missed playoff opportunities (not saying it was his fault at all) and a salary cap and voila.

[el tigre]

I don't see this as a money trade at all. Financially the deals are comparable. The bottom line is that Muckler and Murray are Canadian hockey guys. They are, or have been, hip deep in our national program for years. Heatley wanted out of Atlanta and Muckler took the bait.

I don't think you offer Hossa a 5-YEAR $25 million deal if you really don't want him on your team. They didn't want to pay Hossa more than $5 million a year, plain and simple.

["Richard"]

The funniest part of this is that I'm actually holding back a lot of commentary...

Dan

AHAH, I would hate you see you when you don't hold back!!

[jeffc]

Well, I'll be the first to admit that the Sens are loaded with Euro talent. Alfie, Havlat, Chara, Volchenkov, Hossa until yesterday, etc. I like Fisher, Phillips, Shaeffer but think Redden is overrated (can anyone find a bigger whipping boy for the Sens), and Spezza has a lot of learning to do. Fact is, they've been loaded with talent for about 5 years now and have failed to get the job done. Why? We can speculate all we want but you will never know the real answer.

I think Forsberg is probably the best all round player in the league. I think Sundin is majorly over rated. I think Jagr was a superstar in his earlier years but has a major attitude problem now. I think Rick Nash and Kovalchuk are going to be superstars. Really, I could care less about someone's nationality with respect to their hockey talent and from what I read in these forums, most other people do as well. Hossa is a damn fine player, probably somewhere in the top 5-10 players in the league and I will be sad to see him go, but at the same time, I can see the logic behind this move.

Another thing to throw out. The Stanley Cup has never been won by a team with a European Captain. Coinicidence?

Just stirring the pot.

[broken27]

You know, top to bottom, this WILL be a fun team to watch. A nice mix of youth and vets, and if Kari Lehtonen can become what he projected to be when he was drafted, they could surprise a lot of people...:

10 Serge Aubin Center 6-1 200 Val D'Or, Quebec
26 Eric Boulton Left Wing 6-0 224 Halifax, Nova Scotia
39 Kip Brennan Left Wing 6-4 222 Kingston, Ontario
5 Greg deVries Right Defenseman 6-2 209 Sundridge, Ontario
2 Garnet Exelby Left Defenseman 6-1 215 Ste. Anne, Manitoba
28 Niclas Havelid Left Defenseman 6-0 200 Stockholm, Sweden
34 Shane Hnidy Left Defenseman 6-1 210 Neepawa, Manitoba
16 Bobby Holik Center 6-4 235 Jihalva, Czech Republic
18 Marian Hossa Right Wing 6-1 208 Stara Lubovna, SVK
30 Jani Hurme Goaltender 6-0 195 Turku, Finland
5 Tomas Kloucek Left Defenseman 6-3 225 Prague, Czech Republic
17 Ilya Kovalchuk Left Wing 6-2 220 Tver, Russia
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov Left Wing 5-10 185 Voskresensk, Russia
29 Brad Larsen Left Wing 6-0 200 Nakusp, BC, CAN
32 Kari Lehtonen Goaltender 6-3 200 Helsinki, Finland
20 Francis Lessard Left Wing 6-3 225 Montreal, Quebec
12 Scott Mellanby Right Wing 6-1 208 MONTREAL, QC, CAN
44 Jaroslav Modry Left Defenseman 6-2 226 Ceske-Budejovice, CZE
31 Pasi Nurminen Goaltender 5-10 215 Lahti, Finland
26 Ronald Petrovicky Right Wing 6-0 190 Zilina, Slovakia
9 Marc Savard Center 5-10 195 Ottawa, Ontario
27 Patrik Stefan Center 6-2 210 Pribram, Czech Republic
25 Andy Sutton Right Defenseman 6-6 245 Kingston, Ontario
11 J.P. Vigier Left Wing

[broken27]

Another thing to throw out. The Stanley Cup has never been won by a team with a European Captain. Coinicidence?

Just stirring the pot.

It's not a coincidence... It's probability. How many European captains are there and have there been? In comparison, I'd bet it's something like 100-1 against. Given that assumed ratio (it's likely even worse), it's not a coincidence.

IMO

Dan

[mberube]

You know, top to bottom, this WILL be a fun team to watch. A nice mix of youth and vets, and if Kari Lehtonen can become what he projected to be when he was drafted, they could surprise a lot of people...:

10 Serge Aubin Center 6-1 200 Val D'Or, Quebec
26 Eric Boulton Left Wing 6-0 224 Halifax, Nova Scotia
39 Kip Brennan Left Wing 6-4 222 Kingston, Ontario
5 Greg deVries Right Defenseman 6-2 209 Sundridge, Ontario
2 Garnet Exelby Left Defenseman 6-1 215 Ste. Anne, Manitoba
28 Niclas Havelid Left Defenseman 6-0 200 Stockholm, Sweden
34 Shane Hnidy Left Defenseman 6-1 210 Neepawa, Manitoba
16 Bobby Holik Center 6-4 235 Jihalva, Czech Republic
18 Marian Hossa Right Wing 6-1 208 Stara Lubovna, SVK
30 Jani Hurme Goaltender 6-0 195 Turku, Finland
5 Tomas Kloucek Left Defenseman 6-3 225 Prague, Czech Republic
17 Ilya Kovalchuk Left Wing 6-2 220 Tver, Russia
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov Left Wing 5-10 185 Voskresensk, Russia
29 Brad Larsen Left Wing 6-0 200 Nakusp, BC, CAN
32 Kari Lehtonen Goaltender 6-3 200 Helsinki, Finland
20 Francis Lessard Left Wing 6-3 225 Montreal, Quebec
12 Scott Mellanby Right Wing 6-1 208 MONTREAL, QC, CAN
44 Jaroslav Modry Left Defenseman 6-2 226 Ceske-Budejovice, CZE
31 Pasi Nurminen Goaltender 5-10 215 Lahti, Finland
26 Ronald Petrovicky Right Wing 6-0 190 Zilina, Slovakia
9 Marc Savard Center 5-10 195 Ottawa, Ontario
27 Patrik Stefan Center 6-2 210 Pribram, Czech Republic
25 Andy Sutton Right Defenseman 6-6 245 Kingston, Ontario
11 J.P. Vigier Left Wing

You got that right. The fun part of the new CDA is that there should a lot more competitive team out there. Can’t wait until training camp starts.

Mike

["Richard"]

Ottawa should dump alfie and redden as well. Yes I'm talking out of my ass but think of what they could get for alfie... think of what they could get for redden!!!

[Ty Webb]

North Americans aren't the only players with a tendancy to play dirty. I think the gist is that they have a greater propensity to be a cry baby.

Who took out Cam Neely's knee?

[jeffc]

Tonya Harding.

Wait, sorry, different knee.

[mberube]

Tonya Harding.

Wait, sorry, different knee.

[Shivas Irons]

North Americans aren't the only players with a tendancy to play dirty. I think the gist is that they have a greater propensity to be a cry baby.

Who took out Cam Neely's knee?

North American players have never been known as dirty, but they have been known drop the gloves rather than use the stick, or in Havlat's case, his skates to fight his battles. They're referred to as "gritty", but as I mentioned this is old school thinking that needs to be put to bed.
There a lots of Euro players that are tough as nails, and lots of North American players that are dirtier than Tanya Harding, but not as dirty as say, Christina Aguilera.
I seem to remember Ulf Samuelson taking out Neely's knee, Mondue's eye, etc. etc. I don't think anyone cried when Domi suckered him. Good thing he didn't pile on top of him & break his neck though. Now that would have been dirty.

[dbleber]

Here's a new one for you Thrasher fans.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=134419

Might not be such a rosie season with no goalie!

[dbleber]

You know, top to bottom, this WILL be a fun team to watch. A nice mix of youth and vets, and if Kari Lehtonen can become what he projected to be when he was drafted, they could surprise a lot of people...:

10 Serge Aubin Center 6-1 200 Val D'Or, Quebec
26 Eric Boulton Left Wing 6-0 224 Halifax, Nova Scotia
39 Kip Brennan Left Wing 6-4 222 Kingston, Ontario
5 Greg deVries Right Defenseman 6-2 209 Sundridge, Ontario
2 Garnet Exelby Left Defenseman 6-1 215 Ste. Anne, Manitoba
28 Niclas Havelid Left Defenseman 6-0 200 Stockholm, Sweden
34 Shane Hnidy Left Defenseman 6-1 210 Neepawa, Manitoba
16 Bobby Holik Center 6-4 235 Jihalva, Czech Republic
18 Marian Hossa Right Wing 6-1 208 Stara Lubovna, SVK
30 Jani Hurme Goaltender 6-0 195 Turku, Finland
5 Tomas Kloucek Left Defenseman 6-3 225 Prague, Czech Republic
17 Ilya Kovalchuk Left Wing 6-2 220 Tver, Russia
13 Vyacheslav Kozlov Left Wing 5-10 185 Voskresensk, Russia
29 Brad Larsen Left Wing 6-0 200 Nakusp, BC, CAN
32 Kari Lehtonen Goaltender 6-3 200 Helsinki, Finland
20 Francis Lessard Left Wing 6-3 225 Montreal, Quebec
12 Scott Mellanby Right Wing 6-1 208 MONTREAL, QC, CAN
44 Jaroslav Modry Left Defenseman 6-2 226 Ceske-Budejovice, CZE
31 Pasi Nurminen Goaltender 5-10 215 Lahti, Finland
26 Ronald Petrovicky Right Wing 6-0 190 Zilina, Slovakia
9 Marc Savard Center 5-10 195 Ottawa, Ontario
27 Patrik Stefan Center 6-2 210 Pribram, Czech Republic
25 Andy Sutton Right Defenseman 6-6 245 Kingston, Ontario
11 J.P. Vigier Left Wing

Lets hope your right about Lehtonen, he may have to grow up quickier then he thinks.

[broken27]

Here's a new one for you Thrasher fans.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=134419

Might not be such a rosie season with no goalie!

True, that doesn't really help matters, but first of all it gives Lehtonen a chance that he may not have otherwise had, and in rotation with Jani Hurme that might go over alright.

Or, they could re-sign Byron Dafoe, or go after Felix Potvin or Mike Dunham, both of whom I would consider equal to Nurminen at this stage of things. Likely be cheaper than the $2M Nurminen was due to make!

Dan

[LobWedge]

True, that doesn't really help matters, but first of all it gives Lehtonen a chance that he may not have otherwise had, and in rotation with Jani Hurme that might go over alright.

Or, they could re-sign Byron Dafoe, or go after Felix Potvin or Mike Dunham, both of whom I would consider equal to Nurminen at this stage of things. Likely be cheaper than the $2M Nurminen was due to make!

Dan

Or Ottawa could trade them Hasek...

[broken27]

Or Ottawa could trade them Hasek...

Maybe we could get JP Vigier!!!!

Dan

[Paulio]

Dan, I hope you are playing in my group for the next tour event... there is plenty of hockey talk in the air. I wish I was not so lazy to share my thoughts on all this crap.

[Chambokl]

I can't believe you guys are still at this. I played 27 holes tonight, went to watch a midget "AAA" hockey pre-season game and then I come home and Dan is still arguing with everybody in the place. I had to laugh at this.

Dan I am happy you finally realize that you did call dbleber a moron. When I pointed it out you were all over me. Maybe a good night of sleep cooled you down or was there a few pint in there.

I am still sad about: "If Muckler keels over and dies tonight, party at my place tomorrow!"

I hate Muckler probably more than you. He is old school and has the same idea about hockey as Don Cherry. Hey Dan, you must love that ?%$#& Don "Big Mouth" Cherry.

I agree with you, Atlanta will be a good team to watch. Hartley will play a more open style and will use his good players a lot. Do you think Bondra is still interested in going to the Thrashers. I would love to see Bondra, Kovy and Hossa. With Holik the second line centre.

It is sad about Nurminen but Lethonen is a really good goalie. Not proven on the NHL level but I have lots of confidence in him. We also forgot the Ottawa native Marc Savard who played well in Atlanta.

A couple of more weeks and pre-season will start.

Chambo

[Chambokl]

Another thing about economics.

The Devils have a payroll of $ 43.75 millions. We will probably see a trade like Elias (signed today - Wednesday) vs a draft pick

The Leafs with a payroll of $ 39.17 millions. I think Ferguson screwed up on the Nolan case.... lol

Any thought (especially the Devils)

Chambo

[broken27]

Another thing about economics.

The Devils have a payroll of $ 43.75 millions. We will probably see a trade like Elias (signed today - Wednesday) vs a draft pick

The Leafs with a payroll of $ 39.17 millions. I think Ferguson screwed up on the Nolan case.... lol

Any thought (especially the Devils)

Chambo

I honestly can't see the Devils moving Elias, especially after signing Mogilny. It wouldn't make sense for them to trade Elias while acquiring a 36yr old to replace him, no matter what the financial savings. More likely you'll see someone like Jeff Friesen sent packing, or Jamie Langenbrunner.

The Leafs are caught and were going to end up in a bad position vis-a-vis the cap no matter what they did. I honestly think the only way for them to breach the new era is to let Sundin go, but what team could afford to take his contract on? We'll see what they end up doing, but someone's gotta go. They really missed the boat on Nolan and Belfour. Both could have been bought out, likely should have been.

Cheers,
Dan

[mberube]

I honestly can't see the Devils moving Elias, especially after signing Mogilny. It wouldn't make sense for them to trade Elias while acquiring a 36yr old to replace him, no matter what the financial savings. More likely you'll see someone like Jeff Friesen sent packing, or Jamie Langenbrunner.

The Leafs are caught and were going to end up in a bad position vis-a-vis the cap no matter what they did. I honestly think the only way for them to breach the new era is to let Sundin go, but what team could afford to take his contract on? We'll see what they end up doing, but someone's gotta go. They really missed the boat on Nolan and Belfour. Both could have been bought out, likely should have been.

Cheers,
Dan

Nolan is damaged goods and way overpaid, $4.5M for Belfour is not that bad for a top end goalie. Who could replace him and at what price?

Mike

[broken27]

Nolan is damaged goods and way overpaid, $4.5M for Belfour is not that bad for a top end goalie. Who could replace him and at what price?

Mike

Tellqvist is ready to take on a bigger role with that team after being fairly good internationally with Sweden. Let's face it, Toronto is in HEAVY rebuild mode. They'll be lucky to make the playoffs this season unless Allison and Lindros can somehow find their old form from MANY years ago. So why not let your $4.5M and 40yr old goalie go to make some cap room to possibly poach an RFA from another team? That would have been the best move for the Leafs I think.

Quite frankly, with or without Belfour, the Leafs just don't have a very good team this season.

Dan

[jeffc]

is there only hope at making the playoffs this year. Telquist is not ready for Prime Time IMHO. I guess they could have just dumped him and written the year off, but Leaf Nation would have JFJ's head if they did that.

you're right though, Toronto was in bad shape for the new CBA and it will take them 2-3 years to retool their lineup. The big problem is they have little talent coming up through the ranks and now that they can't just spend $ like water, it will be more difficult for them to get a contender.

I read somewhere that they have 1 guy in their current line-up that was actually drafted by the Leafs.

[Chambokl]

Here is a list of the Devils salary:

Brodeur $ 5.3 millions
Rafalski $ 4.2 millions
Elias $ 4.2 millions
Madden $ 3.9 millions
Malakov $ 3.6 millions
Mogilny $ 3.5 millions
Friesen $ 2.3 millions
Gomez $ 2.2 millions
McGillis $ 2.2 millions

So they have to give away 2 players or a Rafalski or Elias.

I really don't understand the trouble they are in. They are known as a cheap team. Why the hell do you sign Malakov for $ 3.6 million is beyond me.

As for the Leafs they should had got rid of Belfour and somehow bought out Nolan in a private deal somehow. This is so sad for the Leafs faithful. Poor Don Cherry will be crying when he sees the sad state of his Leafs.

We should try to rank the top 5 teams in each conference.

Chambo

[mberube]

We should try to rank the top 5 teams in each conference.

Chambo

http://forum.golfresource.net/showth...0949#post60949