Drop Area

[AndreM]

This incident happened on #17 (Par 3) - Le Sorcier.

Player hit tee shot into the woods which are not staked. Player hits a provisional and then upon reaching the green realizes that there is a drop area. He then hits from the Drop area, ignoring the provisionl ball. Wht stroke is being played from the drop area ?

[Gary Hill]

This incident happened on #17 (Par 3) - Le Sorcier.

Player hit tee shot into the woods which are not staked. Player hits a provisional and then upon reaching the green realizes that there is a drop area. He then hits from the Drop area, ignoring the provisionl ball. Wht stroke is being played from the drop area ?

The player has played a stroke with the wrong ball. The penalty is two strokes.
If he does not correct the mistake by playing the correct ball before making a stroke at the next teeing ground, he is disqualified.

[Big Johnny69]

Could you clarify a little for me. This is how I understand it. Because he hit a provisional that becomes his ball in play unless he finds his ball in the woods. Correct? Hitting the provisional takes precedent over finding a drop area to play from, am I correct in assuming this? And as for correcting before teeing off on the next hole, do you mean he should finnish the previous hole with his provisional ball rather than the one from the drop area? But what if he picked up the provisional ball to play the drop area ball? Thanks.

[Gary Hill]

Could you clarify a little for me. This is how I understand it. Because he hit a provisional that becomes his ball in play unless he finds his ball in the woods. Correct?

Correct.

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Hitting the provisional takes precedent over finding a drop area to play from, am I correct in assuming this?

No, but the intended purpose of this particular drop area is unclear to me.

If this "drop area" was intended for a ball lost in the woods, then the golf course has been illegally marked and the matter should be brought to the attention of the R.C.G.A.

Courses CANNOT "stake out" wooded areas and pretend they are water hazards.

And as for correcting before teeing off on the next hole, do you mean he should finnish the previous hole with his provisional ball rather than the one from the drop area? But what if he picked up the provisional ball to play the drop area ball? Thanks.

He must drop a ball at the spot where he picked up his provisional ball and continue play of the hole.

The player has incurred two penalty strokes for playing the wrong ball and an additional penalty stroke for picking up his provisional ball (the ball in play).

[el tigre]

No, but the intended purpose of this particular drop area is unclear to me.

If this "drop area" was intended for a ball lost in the woods, then the golf course has been illegally marked and the matter should be brought to the attention of the R.C.G.A.

Gary, the 17th hole at Le Sorcier is a par 3 with a large water hazard in front of the green. The "drop area" is clearly intended for a ball that goes into the hazard.

[jvincent]

Courses CANNOT "stake out" wooded areas and pretend they are water hazards.

Somewhat off topic, but how about the dreaded "environmentally sensitive" zones that are usually staked red?

Is that permitted?

[Kilroy]

They are usually staked blue or green. You are NOT allowed to retrieve or play your ball in such areas. Drop at point of entry to the area. One stroke penalty.

[Gary Hill]

Somewhat off topic, but how about the dreaded "environmentally sensitive" zones that are usually staked red?

Is that permitted?

The Committee MAY NOT declare an area to be environmentally-sensitive.

These areas can only be designated by an appropriate authoritive agency (Environment Canada, Ducks Unlimited, etc.).

[LobWedge]

Courses CANNOT "stake out" wooded areas and pretend they are water hazards.

Interesting, because Les Vieux Moulins and Heritage both have red staked areas that meet this "criteria".

[Gary Hill]

Interesting, because Les Vieux Moulins and Heritage both have red staked areas that meet this "criteria".

I could name you 100 courses that have this phenomenon. That doesn't make any of them 'legal'.

Golf course owners are in the business of getting the maximum number of players around the course in the shortest possible time. Few are interested in golf, the correct application of the Rules of Golf, or any golfers concerns once they get their money (rakes in bunkers, course conditions, proper markings, etc.)

[jvincent]

The Committee MAY NOT declare an area to be environmentally-sensitive.

These areas can only be designated by an appropriate authoritive agency (Environment Canada, Ducks Unlimited, etc.).

Given all the levels of government here in Ottawa I wouldn't be surprised that some pieces of a golf course would have been designated "special" by an official body as a condition of building the course.

How is one supposed to know the difference?

[Gary Hill]

Given all the levels of government here in Ottawa I wouldn't be surprised that some pieces of a golf course would have been designated "special" by an official body as a condition of building the course.

How is one supposed to know the difference?

The areas are "marked" with environmental stakes by the Committee, but can only be "designated" by official agencies.

(ie. The Committee on its own cannot declare an area to be an environmentally-sensitive area).

[jvincent]

Let me re-phrase.

How does a golfer know that an area marked by the Committee is an "officially" designated sensitive area vs. an incorrectly declared area?

Without some other piece of information, the casual golfer, AKA pretty much all of us here, can't know the difference.

I assume that for RCGA sanctioned events all of the course markings will be checked / corrected, but how about local tournaments?

The example that comes to mind is the Citizen tournament. Stonebridge #4 has a ESA down the left side. I have no idea if it is official or not.

[Gary Hill]

Let me re-phrase.

How does a golfer know that an area marked by the Committee is an "officially" designated sensitive area vs. an incorrectly declared area?

Without some other piece of information, the casual golfer, AKA pretty much all of us here, can't know the difference.

I assume that for RCGA sanctioned events all of the course markings will be checked / corrected, but how about local tournaments?

The example that comes to mind is the Citizen tournament. Stonebridge #4 has a ESA down the left side. I have no idea if it is official or not.

It is an insignificant point to the player on the course.

If an area has been marked as an environmentallly-sensitive area, then the golfer may NOT enter the area under ANY circumstances.

It is only a significant point to myself (as a Rules official) that some courses mark areas as envirionmentally-sensitive areas when they are simply trying to prohibit play from these areas (nurseries and the like).

This practice decreases the significance of truly envirionmentally-sensitive areas.

[jvincent]

It is only a significant point to myself (as a Rules official) that some courses mark areas as envirionmentally-sensitive areas when they are simply trying to prohibit play from these areas (nurseries and the like).

In those situations, what would the proper designation be?

Declare the area GUR or is there a more appropriate local rule?

[el tigre]

In those situations, what would the proper designation be?

Declare the area GUR or is there a more appropriate local rule?

Declare the area OB. Of course, that carries with it a significant penalty of loss of stroke and distance.

[Gary Hill]

In those situations, what would the proper designation be?

Declare the area GUR or is there a more appropriate local rule?

Designate the area as "Ground Under Repair from which play is prohibited".

This is the usual designation for flower gardens, nurseries, clubhouses, patios, etc.

Out of Bounds is not normally used because of the penalty.

[jvincent]

Designate the area as "Ground Under Repair from which play is prohibited".

This is the usual designation for flower gardens, nurseries, clubhouses, patios, etc.

Out of Bounds is not normally used because of the penalty.

Got it.

Now, if I read the rules correctly, if I hit into an area designated as above, I can take relief from the point where it last crossed into the GUR WITHOUT penalty. In order for me to do this I have to be certain that the ball is in the GUR otherwise I have to follow the standard lost ball procedure.

Correct?

[AAA]

To anticipate Gary if I may, yes.

However, if the area is simply declared GUR, you may take relief. If the area is declared GUR from which play is prohibited, you must take relief.

I think that some courses take the ESA route because they wish to keep players out of the area completely. I can't see why they don't simply declare the area GUR play prohibited (as Gary said above) and then post notices prohibiting entry to the area.
If the player cannot then identify his ball, he can still take relief without penalty (in most cases) under Rule 25-1c.

[Gary Hill]

Got it.

Now, if I read the rules correctly, if I hit into an area designated as above, I can take relief from the point where it last crossed into the GUR WITHOUT penalty. In order for me to do this I have to be certain that the ball is in the GUR otherwise I have to follow the standard lost ball procedure.

Correct?

Yes. Although to be technically correct, you don't have to be certain that the ball is in the GUR. You just need reasonable evidence that the ball is in the GUR.

[LobWedge]

It is an insignificant point to the player on the course.

If an area has been marked as an environmentallly-sensitive area, then the golfer may NOT enter the area under ANY circumstances.

It is only a significant point to myself (as a Rules official) that some courses mark areas as envirionmentally-sensitive areas when they are simply trying to prohibit play from these areas (nurseries and the like).

This practice decreases the significance of truly envirionmentally-sensitive areas.

I always find the idea of "environmentally sensitive" areas on a golf course quite amusing as most courses are polluting these areas with runoff from pesticides and herbicides that are used on the course proper, and golfers are filling them with little plastic dimpled spheres.

[Barnie]

Pakenham golf course on the Canyon track (I think it's Canyon) #9 is a par 5 with a area in front of the green that you can't hit out of. It's the one with telephone wires hanging above with the bridge to the green. For some reason I recall that being an environmentally friendly area? If so, then your saying that's a free drop out of there?

[Gary Hill]

Pakenham golf course on the Canyon track (I think it's Canyon) #9 is a par 5 with a area in front of the green that you can't hit out of. It's the one with telephone wires hanging above with the bridge to the green. For some reason I recall that being an environmentally friendly area? If so, then your saying that's a free drop out of there?

No. I never said anywhere that an environmentally sensitive area was a free drop.

[powerlefty]

Pakenham golf course on the Canyon track (I think it's Canyon) #9 is a par 5 with a area in front of the green that you can't hit out of. It's the one with telephone wires hanging above with the bridge to the green. For some reason I recall that being an environmentally friendly area? If so, then your saying that's a free drop out of there?

Every place I have played with these environmentally staked areas actually treat them as a very strict lateral hazard, i.e. you MUST take the penalty and you MUST NOT enter the area to get the ball. This as compared to a normal hazard where you can actuall play the ball as it lies or at the very least go in and save your $4 golf ball.

[AAA]

If so, then your saying that's a free drop out of there?

b. Environmentally-Sensitive Areas If an appropriate authority (i.e., a Government Agency or the like) prohibits entry into and/or play from an area on or adjoining the course for environmental reasons, the Committee should make a Local Rule clarifying the relief procedure. The Committee has some discretion in terms of whether the area is defined as ground under repair, a water hazard or out of bounds. However, it may not simply define such an area to be a water hazard if it does not meet the Definition of a “ Water Hazard ” and it should attempt to preserve the character of the hole. The following Local Rule is recommended:

“I. Definition An environmentally-sensitive area is an area so declared by an appropriate authority, entry into and/or play from which is prohibited for environmental reasons. These areas may be defined as ground under repair, a water hazard, a lateral water hazard or out of bounds at the discretion of the Committee provided that, in the case of an environmentally-sensitive area that has been defined as a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, the area is, by Definition, a water hazard. Note: The Committee may not declare an area to be environmentally-sensitive. Depending on how the Committee defines the area, there may or may not be a penalty. The rule re relief and penalties appropriate to the condition applies

[Marmotte]

At the time this incident occured at le Sorcier, the score card indicated that the ditches at #17 (there are 3 of them) were considered GUR. The ball seems to have been lost into the woods... not in the ditches or in the dried-up marsh that separates the tee-off from the green.
Provisional is in play. Period. Forget the drop area.
Nevertheless...two of the ditches are now filled and covered with brand new grass. But you will still have to carry the 100 yards of dried marsh to reach the green. This is why the drop area will keep on being busy.

[Gary Hill]

At the time this incident occured at le Sorcier, the score card indicated that the ditches at #17 (there are 3 of them) were considered GUR.

How is it possible to have GUR in a ditch?

[Kilroy]

The ditches are still under construction, having been dug to install drain pipes. They will all be covered with turf once the pipes are in, as has been done on 17. For now all such ditches at Sorcier are considered gur.

[Gary Hill]

The ditches are still under construction, having been dug to install drain pipes. They will all be covered with turf once the pipes are in, as has been done on 17. For now all such ditches at Sorcier are considered gur.

Whether under construction or not under construction, there is NO FREE RELIEF for GUR in a hazard!!!

[Kilroy]

The point is that the ditches ARE the GUR. They are not natural ditches. They are in the process of installing pipes and covering them.