Bertuzzi Reinstated

[Colby]

I thought someone would bring this up before. Good or bad?

[SGH]

good for the league financially, but not sure it's a good example of ethics. This was a severe incident, and in the end, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime. This decision sets a precedent for all future like attacks, and I'm not sure in this regard, the suspension was long enough.

Regardless, this is one way to put it all behind us, and let a great hockey player get back to what he does best.

An interesting note: TB can't play in any game that Steve Moore plays in (as stated in Bettman's agreement with TB). the Team 1200 mentioned last night that it'll be interesting to see if teams faced with the possibility of playing Vancouver in the first round will pick up Moore just so the won't face Bertuzzi in the playoffs. Could be an interesting scenario.

[Colby]

I'm not sure the punishment didn't fit the crime. There's no doubt that it was a viscious act, but did the sucker punch break the neck, Bertuzzi landing on him, or the dog pile. And why was Moore even on the ice for the incident to happen.

Also, here is what happened to Bertuzzi since the offence:

• Lost $500k in salary
• Lost close to the same in lost endorsement money
• Missed 20 NHL games
• His team loses in the first round to Calgary who went on to lose to Tampa in the Stanley Cup finals. Who knows what might have happened if Bertuzzi had been playing
• Missed World Cup
• Missed playing a whole season in Europe while the lockout was on
• Missed playing in another international series (I can't remember which one)
• Personal shame (This one is hard to measure)

There's no winner in any of this. Not on either side. But there has to be a point where everyone starts to move forward. There will be some people who feel that Bertuzzi should be banned for life, and others who feel that the suspension was too long.

[el tigre]

I'm not sure the punishment didn't fit the crime. There's no doubt that it was a viscious act, but did the sucker punch break the neck, Bertuzzi landing on him, or the dog pile.

I don't why you keep insisting that there is some doubt about who caused Moore's injuries. There is no doubt whatsoever - none, nada, zippo, zilch! Bertuzzi was CONVICTED of the crime, found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt - he did not even bother to mount a defence! You can debate whether the sentence was appropriate if you wish, but there is no debate about who is guilty of the crime.

And why was Moore even on the ice for the incident to happen.

EXCUSE ME?!? He has as much right to be on the ice as any other player on the Colorado Avalanche or Vancouver Canucks. Are you trying to pin this on the victim now?

Also, here is what happened to Bertuzzi since the offence:

• Lost $500k in salary
• Lost close to the same in lost endorsement money
• Missed 20 NHL games
• His team loses in the first round to Calgary who went on to lose to Tampa in the Stanley Cup finals. Who knows what might have happened if Bertuzzi had been playing
• Missed World Cup
• Missed playing a whole season in Europe while the lockout was on
• Missed playing in another international series (I can't remember which one)
• Personal shame (This one is hard to measure)

There's no winner in any of this. Not on either side. But there has to be a point where everyone starts to move forward. There will be some people who feel that Bertuzzi should be banned for life, and others who feel that the suspension was too long.

Basically, he got 20 games and missed the World Cup - and he brought it onto himself. The salary and endorsement money is meaningless, and being shut out of playing during the lockout hardly counts as a "suspension". Geez, by Bettman's reasoning I guess all the other players in the league were serving a 14-month "suspension" for supporting their union.

Moore could be crippled for life, and his NHL career is likely over. Bertuzzi should have gotten at least another 20 games at the beginning of this season, if not more.

[Keithsguy]

The fact that this incident caused serious injuries was justification for the punishment that Bertuzzi received. However, if we take a look at the 'highlight' reels and review the hits, boarding, cross checking, and cheapshots we will see that there are a lot of incidents that go on throughout the year that have more intentions on causing serious, permanent injuries than the cheapshot delivered by Bertuzzi.

Whether we are talking about the goons in the league or 'respected' players. I am NOT justifying his actions but those that think Bertuzzi was not punished appropriately should look at some of those and determine on how the league demonstrates how it will prevent serious injuries.

A cheap shot to the back of the head is only one of many infractions that need to be punished and making Bertuzzi an example is not going to be the solution to the more widespread problem.

[Colby]

I don't why you keep insisting that there is some doubt about who caused Moore's injuries. There is no doubt whatsoever - none, nada, zippo, zilch! Bertuzzi was CONVICTED of the crime, found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt - he did not even bother to mount a defence! You can debate whether the sentence was appropriate if you wish, but there is no debate about who is guilty of the crime.

It was a plea bargain. There was no defense. And it was assault causing bodily harm. There was no determination that the punch broke Moore's neck.

EXCUSE ME?!? He has as much right to be on the ice as any other player on the Colorado Avalanche or Vancouver Canucks. Are you trying to pin this on the victim now?

The victim wasn't on the ice on his own accord. The coach sent him out there, and at that point in the game, an experienced coach would have had him on the bench.

Basically, he got 20 games and missed the World Cup - and he brought it onto himself. The salary and endorsement money is meaningless, and being shut out of playing during the lockout hardly counts as a "suspension". Geez, by Bettman's reasoning I guess all the other players in the league were serving a 14-month "suspension" for supporting their union.

why is the salary and endorsement money meaningless? A million dollars lost is a million dollars. As for the scabs playing in Europe, taking jobs away from players who could have really used that money, it's still income lost, which is what a suspension does. Bertuzzi could have easily made a million over last season playing in Europe, lots of others did. The suspension by the NHL has nothing to do with the outcome of the criminal proceedings. It's a life of its own.

Moore could be crippled for life, and his NHL career is likely over. Bertuzzi should have gotten at least another 20 games at the beginning of this season, if not more.

Moore will continue to play. Gary Roberts came back from a neck injury, and is doing fine. Will he be as effective as he was before? Only time will tell. As for the number of games Bertuzzi should have been suspended, the monetary loss will hurt him far worse, especially under the new CBA where he will not be able to make it back as easily as under the old system.

[Shivas Irons]

I can't believe people are defending Bertuzzi in this incident.
Moore is no angel, but his neck was broken as a direct result of Bertuzzi's actions.
So I ask you, I there had not been a lock out, would a 20 game suspension be appropriate for this infraction? I don't think so.

[Colby]

Who is defending Bertuzzi in this incident? His actions in some manner directly contributed to Moore's broken neck. And I agree a 20 game suspension would not have been enough. However it was not just 20 games. And it didn't just affect Bertuzzi. It affected every member of the Vancouver Canucks during the last playoff run. Who knows how far they may have gone. I'm sure it affected Bertuzzi's personal life, not knowing when he could play professional hockey again, and there was a lot of money lost by Bertuzzi, real or implied.

[covanant]

What is sad is the fact that,If moore had gotten up from the punch it would have only

been a penalty to T.B!
The NHL needs to put a stop to all this crap!
Not a good example for kids to see.
It seems it takes serious injury"s for the NHL to act.
The lockout should not have been a factor in T.B's suspension.
Remember McSorley anyone?
Seems like T.B got away with murder.

[mberube]

As long as the NHL keeps fights legal, all these types of incidents will keep on happening.

TB did not intend to break Moore’s neck. If anybody thinks TB went after Moore thinking “ I am going to intensely break this kids neck” You must be the most gullible person here. TB went after Moore to provoke him and fight.

I am not defending him but part of the blame should be put on the NHL. Fighting is part of the problem. Lets say that fights were not allowed. The referring would have stopped all of this at the first sign of aggression from TB. Since it is allowed TB continued to harass Moore until the tragic event happened.

I have seen a lot more disturbing events in the NHL and they never got the punishment they dissevered. Domi for example sucker punched a Rangers player a few years back. That player hade no chance to defend himself cause there was no fighting intentions from Domi. The player fell to the ice like a potato bag. No broken neck so no major punishment needed. At least Moore was feeling aggression from TB and had a chance to defend himself.

The problem here is that they gage the amount of punishment with the injuries.

[NoBack]

The NHL missed the boat on this one.

The guy should be in jail.

[Shivas Irons]

[QUOTE=mberube]TB did not intend to break Moore’s neck. If anybody thinks TB went after Moore thinking “ I am going to intensely break this kids neck” You must be the most gullible person here.
[QUOTE]

Give me a break, this a moot point if there ever was one.

If I get drunk, then go for a drive and accidentally run somebody over, it doesn't absolve me of the responsibility because I didn't mean to do it. Same goes for Bertuzzi. The only differernce is Bertuzzi's actions were intentional.

If you sucker punch someone in the back of the head there is a good chance it will result in some sort of injury. You would have to be an idiot not to realize this, which by no small coincidence, Bertuzzi is.

[mberube]

Give me a break, this a moot point if there ever was one.

If I get drunk, then go for a drive and accidentally run somebody over, it doesn't absolve me of the responsibility because I didn't mean to do it. Same goes for Bertuzzi. The only differernce is Bertuzzi's actions were intentional.

If you sucker punch someone in the back of the head there is a good chance it will result in some sort of injury. You would have to be an idiot not to realize this, which by no small coincidence, Bertuzzi is.

Punching someone will result in an injury no doubt but intentionally doing it to break his neck is another thing.

Your reasoning is that every fight should have attempted murder written all over it cause one well placed punch can kill someone.

Have you ever fought in your lifetime? If so did you intensely try to permanently hurt, disable or kill that person?

[SGH]

I think the justice system is the one who missed the boat. This was assault caught on film - no excuse for the final decisin that was made, I agree, jail time seems to fit the crime.

The NHL missed the boat on this one.

The guy should be in jail.

[NoBack]

Your reasoning is that every fight should have attempted murder written all over it cause one well placed punch can kill someone.

Have you ever fought in your lifetime? If so did you intensely try to permanently hurt, disable or kill that person?

When was the fight? That was NOT a fight. All I saw was TB sucker punching someone in the back of the head.

[Golfbum]

As long as the NHL keeps fights legal, all these types of incidents will keep on happening.

TB did not intend to break Moore’s neck. If anybody thinks TB went after Moore thinking “ I am going to intensely break this kids neck” You must be the most gullible person here. TB went after Moore to provoke him and fight.

I am not defending him but part of the blame should be put on the NHL. Fighting is part of the problem. Lets say that fights were not allowed. The referring would have stopped all of this at the first sign of aggression from TB. Since it is allowed TB continued to harass Moore until the tragic event happened.

I have seen a lot more disturbing events in the NHL and they never got the punishment they dissevered. Domi for example sucker punched a Rangers player a few years back. That player hade no chance to defend himself cause there was no fighting intentions from Domi. The player fell to the ice like a potato bag. No broken neck so no major punishment needed. At least Moore was feeling aggression from TB and had a chance to defend himself.

The problem here is that they gage the amount of punishment with the injuries.

I agree with the above statement. I doubt very much the Bertuzzi had any intentions of breaking Moore's neck. I have watched a lot of live JR hockey over the past 8 years, talked to a lot of players during that time. No player that I seen fight told me they fought with the purpose of hurting the other player.

Now stick infractions? Different story. I have seen players slash other guys wrists, and the purpose was to hurt them. In my mind that is far more violent. Or the check from behind that hammers a player head first into the boards. Violent. The NHL needs to crack down on those issues too. In fact all hockey leagues needs to take a major step in those areas.

Did the sucker punch break Moore's neck? Or was it the pileup after the sucker punch?
Either way it should not have happened, and yet it did.

As for jail time, come on folks lets be realistic here. There are far worse crimes than that every day on the streets. A lot of charges and time spent in our prison systems do not come close to matching the crimes. Our laws and judges are weak when it comes to punishing criminals in this country.

Let it go, the NHL has reinstated Bertuzzi. They make the rules, the players abide them. Right or wrong we have no say in it.

[Shivas Irons]

Your reasoning is that every fight should have attempted murder written all over it cause one well placed punch can kill someone.

Huh?

I don't recall writing that every fight should have attempted murder written all over it...oh wait, that's because I didn't, so I'm not sure what it is you are referring to.

My point is, it doesn't matter what your INTENTIONS are, if you break sombody's neck as a result of your actions, you are responsible. It's beyond me why that simple concept is lost on so many people.
If you get in a fight with someone at a night club and accidentally kill them you will be held responsible for it. Bertuzzi's case is no different.

[NoBack]

Let it go, the NHL has reinstated Bertuzzi. They make the rules, the players abide them. Right or wrong we have no say in it.

?????????? you lost me there ??????????????
Where does it say the player is allowed to sucker puch (with or without the intent to injure) in the rulles book??? How is that ABIDING by them?

[el tigre]

As long as the NHL keeps fights legal, all these types of incidents will keep on happening.

TB did not intend to break Moore’s neck. If anybody thinks TB went after Moore thinking “ I am going to intensely break this kids neck” You must be the most gullible person here. TB went after Moore to provoke him and fight.

I am not defending him but part of the blame should be put on the NHL. Fighting is part of the problem. Lets say that fights were not allowed. The referring would have stopped all of this at the first sign of aggression from TB. Since it is allowed TB continued to harass Moore until the tragic event happened.

Good point. A 5-minute major for fighting is a joke. Hockey is the only sport that I know of where you can get into a fight and are allowed to continue to play in the game.

I referee broomball, which is a sport that is very similar to hockey. In broomball a fighting major includes a suspension from the remainder of the game AND the next game. ANY major penalty in the last 5 minutes of the game also carries an automatic one-game suspension. And many leagues also have their own "house rules" on top of these where the suspensions are even stiffer. Fights are rare in broomball - I usually give out 2 or 3 fighting majors a year in over 100 games. Hockey could learn a lot from broomball.

[Hank Hill]

I can't help but feel that if TB wasn't such a talented superstar he would have sat out a lot lot longer.

[broken27]

It was a plea bargain. There was no defense. And it was assault causing bodily harm. There was no determination that the punch broke Moore's neck.

No determination that the punch broke Moore's neck, but I'm fairly confident had the punch not occured, there would not have been any broken neck at all...

The victim wasn't on the ice on his own accord. The coach sent him out there, and at that point in the game, an experienced coach would have had him on the bench.

Wrong. The game was out of reach, and that is when coaches of the team winning the game are SUPPOSED to play their marginal 3rd and 4th line players. Are you suggesting Colorado's coach should have expected Bertuzzi's actions?

why is the salary and endorsement money meaningless? A million dollars lost is a million dollars. As for the scabs playing in Europe, taking jobs away from players who could have really used that money, it's still income lost, which is what a suspension does. Bertuzzi could have easily made a million over last season playing in Europe, lots of others did. The suspension by the NHL has nothing to do with the outcome of the criminal proceedings. It's a life of its own.

I agree that Bertuzzi losing money has to come into consideration when dealing out punishments... But Dave, if there is no strike in Europe, how are those players scabs?? They were locked out, not on strike. European teams voluntarily signed these guys... You want to point fingers, keep them on this side of the Atlantic (or Pacific in the case of Russia). Especially European players should be applauded for playing in their home leagues instead of sitting around getting fat like so many players did...

Moore will continue to play. Gary Roberts came back from a neck injury, and is doing fine. Will he be as effective as he was before? Only time will tell. As for the number of games Bertuzzi should have been suspended, the monetary loss will hurt him far worse, especially under the new CBA where he will not be able to make it back as easily as under the old system.

Again, you are wrong. Moore's odds of playing another season in the NHL are slim to none. His injuries are part of it, but his overall lack of talent and ability will definitely ensure that he doesn't play anymore. Who cares, the kid has a Harvard education and will prosper more from academic pursuits than hockey...

Cheers,
Dan

[Shivas Irons]

the kid has a Harvard education and will prosper more from academic pursuits than hockey...
Cheers,
Dan

Professions that have a salary of $425K are not exactly a dime a dozen, Harvard education or not. I doubt Moore will find other work at a similar salary and meanwhile Bertuzzi will make over 5 million this year.
I think Moore's lawyers are going to take Bertuzzi et al to the cleaners with their civil suit, and rightly so.

here's a good take on it:

http://www.longmontfyi.com/sports-story.asp?id=3087

But getting back to Colby's original question of good or bad...BAD NHL!!

[broken27]

Professions that have a salary of $425K are not exactly a dime a dozen, Harvard education or not. I doubt Moore will find other work at a similar salary and meanwhile Bertuzzi will make over 5 million this year.
I think Moore's lawyers are going to take Bertuzzi et al to the cleaners with their civil suit, and rightly so.

here's a good take on it:

http://www.longmontfyi.com/sports-story.asp?id=3087

But getting back to Colby's original question of good or bad...BAD NHL!!

Careers at $425K aren't a dime a dozen, but this guy's career would likely last about 4 seasons if he was healthy, simply based on a lack of talent. This guy was a borderline NHLer to begin with!!! He'll make more money over his lifetime working at whatever he got his degree in...

I totally agree that the NHL dropped the ball on this sentence though...

Dan

[flagolfnut]

So in all how many games was he suspended? How much money did he lose? The worst cheap shot I ever saw in the NHL was during the playoffs when Darryl Hunter nailed Claude Lemieux into the boards after he scored a goal. The injuries sustained were not as bad but it was much more violent, but we really do have to look at the injury that occured...a broken neck, and even though the action wasn't as violent the injury was much worse and the penalty just like in the justice system should fit the crime. If any of us got into a fight anywhere and broke someones neck I think our punishment would be much worse than T.B's.

[broken27]

So in all how many games was he suspended? How much money did he lose? The worst cheap shot I ever saw in the NHL was during the playoffs when Darryl Hunter nailed Claude Lemieux into the boards after he scored a goal. The injuries sustained were not as bad but it was much more violent, but we really do have to look at the injury that occured...a broken neck, and even though the action wasn't as violent the injury was much worse and the penalty just like in the justice system should fit the crime. If any of us got into a fight anywhere and broke someones neck I think our punishment would be much worse than T.B's.

How could anything be more violent than sucker punching someone from behind?

Colby posted the details of the suspension.

Personally, without jail time, I think the way they handled this was a joke, and encourages me to act out my violent inclinations... Maybe I'll go punch the guy at 7-11 in the face... He'll never see it coming....

Dan

[Colby]

How could anything be more violent than sucker punching someone from behind?

Colby posted the details of the suspension.

Personally, without jail time, I think the way they handled this was a joke, and encourages me to act out my violent inclinations... Maybe I'll go punch the guy at 7-11 in the face... He'll never see it coming....

Dan

Or take Karam out as he's trying to get another CTP on the Tour...

[flagolfnut]

How could anything be more violent than sucker punching someone from behind?

Colby posted the details of the suspension.

Personally, without jail time, I think the way they handled this was a joke, and encourages me to act out my violent inclinations... Maybe I'll go punch the guy at 7-11 in the face... He'll never see it coming....

Dan

True sucker punching is violent and not only that it's cowardly, however McSorleys shot to the head against Brashear with a stick is more violent and cowardly and what happened with that?

[broken27]

True sucker punching is violent and not only that it's cowardly, however McSorleys shot to the head against Brashear with a stick is more violent and cowardly and what happened with that?

McSorley was suspended for one season, and never returned to the NHL afterwards.

Dan

[Colby]

No determination that the punch broke Moore's neck, but I'm fairly confident had the punch not occured, there would not have been any broken neck at all...

Completely agree.

Wrong. The game was out of reach, and that is when coaches of the team winning the game are SUPPOSED to play their marginal 3rd and 4th line players. Are you suggesting Colorado's coach should have expected Bertuzzi's actions?

There had been talk of getting Moore back for his hit on Naslund. Granato was a rookie coach that should have sat Moore with the posibility of that occuring

I agree that Bertuzzi losing money has to come into consideration when dealing out punishments... But Dave, if there is no strike in Europe, how are those players scabs?? They were locked out, not on strike. European teams voluntarily signed these guys... You want to point fingers, keep them on this side of the Atlantic (or Pacific in the case of Russia). Especially European players should be applauded for playing in their home leagues instead of sitting around getting fat like so many players did...

Sorry, scab was an incorrect word. What they were doing were taking the jobs away from people who needed it in leagues that have salary caps. That's really two faced. They didn't want a salary cap in the NHL, but when locked out, went and played for less in leagues that had salary caps.

Again, you are wrong. Moore's odds of playing another season in the NHL are slim to none. His injuries are part of it, but his overall lack of talent and ability will definitely ensure that he doesn't play anymore. Who cares, the kid has a Harvard education and will prosper more from academic pursuits than hockey...

His lack of talent may keep him out of the NHL, but there are other leagues, including Europe, where he might be able to play. The money would not be the same, but he would be playing hockey professionaly.

[Golfbum]

?????????? you lost me there ??????????????
Where does it say the player is allowed to sucker puch (with or without the intent to injure) in the rulles book??? How is that ABIDING by them?

I never said sucker punching was part of the game in my statement. What I meant was "The NHL has decided to let Bertuzzi play again" That is their ruling, and there ain't a damn thing you, I or anyone else can do about it.
There is no place in hockey for sucker punching, I do not condon that action in anyway. However it happened, and according to the NHL TB has done his time and is allowed to lace them up again.
Where in the rule book does it say a player can crosscheck another player into the boards from behind? If it happens the quilty player might get a game misconduct, if it was really violent he might sit out a couple of games. In my mind that offence is a lot worse than a sucker punch.
As stated by someone else in this thread, was it the sucker punch or the ensuing pileup that caused the broken neck? Yes the sucker punch started the incident, and if it had not happened then Moore's neck would not have been broken.
It happened, the ruling has been made. If you or anyone else does not like the ruling then take time to write the NHL Head Office. I am quite sure Colin Campbell would be glad to read your opinions on this matter. He is the type of guy who will listen to you, I know that for a fact. I have met the man in person, talked to him quite a bit when his son played JR B hockey for our local team. Take time to write him and air your thoughts out on this matter.