I have to know do you think Utley or Peltz is correct?
Also what is more important Confidence or Knowledge when you have a 3footer for par.
Printable View
I have to know do you think Utley or Peltz is correct?
Also what is more important Confidence or Knowledge when you have a 3footer for par.
Utley has won a PGA tour event, he has over $1 million in career earnings, he will win on the Senior Tour in 2012. Pelz is a scientist who loves golf, Utley is a professional golfer. I rest my case.
As to knowledge, look at all the kids who emulate their favorite pro's swing, and putt lights out, but have never had a lesson! The minute you start taking formal lessons, paralysis by analysis sets in. Then when you stand over a key shot, thoughts of swing plane, tempo, weight shift crowd your poor brain, increasing anxiety levels. You haven't got a chance!
So you are voting for Utley,and Confidence? Interesting view on lessons I think that if you have a qualified instructor or coach he or she should be able to make positive changes in your swing while keeping your confidence high and anxiety levels low. I agree that if you are thinking to many thoughts over the ball you will not have a chance. BC Mist talks about clearkeys i am looking at the web page and it is interesting stuff worth a read.
Yes, Clearkey Golf seems very impressive, I mentioned in another post yesterday that they have a free putting book which you can download. I am enjoying it very much.
I am not opposed to lessons. I think every beginner would benefit from on a lesson on the proper grip. But I do strongly believe that swing gurus have taken over the game. We have become too technical, with too much emphasis on body positions at various points during the swing. The swing should be as natural as possible, with the emphasis on rhythm and balance, not mechanics. The swing should be like riding a bicycle.
And another point, the most critical "position" is impact. I believe that my swing looks like a cross between Miller Barber and Lee Trevino. More than 30 years ago I could break 80 on a fairly consistent basis, with lots of scrambling, chipping and putting. One day a college team member snickered at my swing on the driving range. I lost all of my game for the next 30 years trying to develop a "proper" swing.
I voted for Peltz, but all I really know about Utley I have read on the forum, but that's enough to know he uses the arc method whick I beleve is not as consistant as the Peltz's Pure In Line Stroke or "pils" method.
I think both knowlege and confidence are equally important. I don't really understand how confidence could trump knowlege, but I took Peltz's teaching to be more about understanding what you are doing. He gets data from thousands of test balls and the odds say "whatever", I think it's time to start listening.
Once you understand the physics, and believe his results, which are well proven, the knowlege brings you confidence.
Name 8 PGA Tour winners who have become NAME teachers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhh7
Name 8 NAME teachers who were PGA Tour winners. "I rest my case."
A good golf swing is NOT natural and requires the learning of sound mechanics. The problem with teaching is not "paralysis by analysis" but paralysis by incorrect analysis.
If you stand over a shot thinking "of swing plane, tempo, weight shift," you have NOT been taught correctly how to play the game. When you continue your study of Carey Mumford's work by reading "Double Connexion," you will see the importance of sound mechanics and most importantly, how to erase these kinds of thoughts when you play the game. It is actually very simple to do, but the modern swing gurus have brainwashed us into thinking their way, which is contradictory to how our brains actually work.
"The swing should be like riding a bicycle." is right to the point of the necessity to learn how to balance our selves after which doing so quickly becomes subconscious. The difference is that a good golf swing is infinitely more complex to initially learn, than balancing on a bike, however, when you ride or play, both should be done subconsciously. Basically, there is only one way to learn to balance on a bike and yet in golf, there are 100 different swing methods, each consisting of scores of different parts, many of which are NOT correct, but soon become subconscious. The real problem in golf is trying to unlearn the incorrect things that you have perfected, when and if you discover what is right and good, and then making them subconscious. This is why it is so essential to be taught by someone who really knows, when first taking up the game.
This line of Dan's is worth repeating as it applies not to just putting but to the full swing "Once you understand the physics, and believe his results, which are well proven, the knowledge brings you confidence." This is why I continue to recommend "The Knowledge Video" by Mark Evershed.
Well I can't choose between the two because I think that different strokes are better for different folks. :)
But I think that confidence beats out knowledge basically because if you have confidence it means that you already have a good stroke that you know is reliable.
I voted Utley/confidence. I have read neither Pelz or Utley (Utley on order) but based on what I have read on the forums I believe I am an "Utley" putter, that is the screen door method, square-open-close-square-open. I tried the Pelz or pils method, albeit without the benefit of instruction or reading the book, but found it un-natural for me. I have confidence in the Utley method - today. Now that I have a better understanding of my stroke, I hope the practice over this winter will pay off with lower putts per round (34.2 putts over 65 rounds). I voted confidence as I believe I have reasonable knowledge about the mechanics of putting in general, but after missing a few 2 footers, all the knowledge in the world won't help me; I need to make a hundred or so on the practice green to get that touch back.
The debate on the value of instruction can go on forever, but I believe that if you have good solid instruction, and quality practice, then when you get to the first tee it should be like riding a bike. I remember as a kid it took me a long time to learn to ride and I was old enough to remember that once I forgot about all the steps it takes to get on and make it move, then there was no holding me back. Funny thing, as long as dad was holding on I had not thoughts about what I was doing, but as soon as I saw that he let go, my mind raced about what I was supposed to do and I usually stopped pedaling, soon followed by a crash. The time to think about the swing is on the practice range, the mind should be blank when your over the ball and you have to trust yourself to execute what you have learned and practiced.
I did not vote for anything. Confidence is very important over ANY shot. If you have doubt in your ability to execute, you have a good chance of botching it. Confidence comes from knowledge. How would you know to be confident if you don't know what you are doing? Unless you are completely oblivious which sometimes is not the worst thing on the course :-)
As for Utley vs. Pelz, like someone said different strokes for different folks. My only point in the other thread was to study both if you are a student of one of them, i.e., if you give a hoot. I was a PIL stroke advocate because in theory it is better to always have the putter head on line and square. But for me I have had trouble with getting the PIL stroke completely reliable so I decided to read Utley's book (cheap and quick). So far it has me at least no longer dismissing the arc swing. When you look on tour, I don't think there is a dominant style so that is not going to provide any answers either.
As for Utley's credentials, I think they are more valid than BC gives him credit for. He has garnered a fair bit of credibility on the tour and started all of this by realizing he had lots of tour guys coming to him for help. That is because he wins were almost purely due to lights out putting and chipping.
Hi DanQuote:
Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank
Knowledge breeds Confidence. My son just finished reading the Utley book. His coach Rob Akins [coach to David Toms] is a close friend of Stan Utley. He putts on a arc, I am more straight down the line. For him the arc method works wonders.
In practice, he has sunk 211 consecutive 4 foot putts, and 157 consecutive putts at 5 feet. He could not do this trying to immulate the methods subscribed by Pelz. His lowest no. of putts over 9 holes is 10, and 23 for a full round of 18 [shot a 66]. When he shot a course record '64' he had 25 putts, which included one 3-putt :irked:
To each his own. General rule of thumb: if you like a face balanced putter then follow Pelz, if you like a putter with toe hand [like a Anser, Newport, Callie] then the Utley methods might work best.
I also believe the better a player is at sorting out his Cause and Effect reasoning the less he needs to see a swing coach. Some players get too dependent on their coach and forget how to swing the club with a clear mind.
Both styles were discussed on the Kevin Haime radio show Saturday and there was a quote was that over 70% of tour players use the "Utley" style. Don't know where that info comes from. Not sure the PGA keeps that info and have not seen it in any publication.Quote:
Originally Posted by byerxa
Interesting. I do know most of the putters on tour that I would pick to make a 10 footer use more of an arc stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi
PGATour.com reports that best putters for 2006 were 1. Daniel Chopra; 2. Vaughn Taylor; 3. Brian Gay; 4. David Howell; and 5. Phil Mickelson. Range was 1.712 - 1.731. Only one I can visualize is Phil and I cannot tell if he is a Pelz or Utley, but I know he is a Pelz student for the short game. What about Fred Couples and Ben Crenshaw? They were, in their time, some of the best. I see that Fred C. uses the belly putter now, due to his back issues I think. Which were they?
Is it even possible to use the "Utley stroke" with a belly putter?
Phil is touted as a PIL stroke putter. Note he uses a very short putter. Don't know about the rest although Utley uses Crenshaw as an example a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi
Remember, I have not read either book, but seems to me that unless you get the putter hanging nearly perpendicular, the effect will just be a longer, more gradual "gate" style. I can't think of any other belly putters at the moment (Billy Mayfair?) I would think guys like Langer and Lehman would be Pelz method, with a pendulum swing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank
Confidence is more important than knowledge on a 3 foot putt.
Regarding the Pelz PILS vs the Utley arc stroke, it all depends on the geometry of your stance, putter length, arm length, putter lie angle, and posture (standing up/bent over). A very tall person generally has an upright full swing path (square to square) while a very short person usually has a flat full swing. The flat swing would be considered inside-out. The tall person's swing would be upright. The same applies to putting. Dave Pelz is very tall (6' 5"). I have putted balls with his Odyssey putter. It is bent very upright. With a putter that upright and being 6'5", I can see how he came up with the PILS putting stroke. You can be tall however, and still have a flat putting swing. Your putter could be too flat. You could be bent over using a putter that is too long. There are all kinds of permutations possible. Phil Mickelson is 6' 3" and uses a 32" putter! This allows him to hang his arms straight down forming a triangle. Anyway, you shouldn't consciously think about swinging the putter on an arc while you are executing a putting stroke. Just lock your hands and arms to form a triangle and then rotate the shoulders. Your stroke will either be straight-back straight-through or more arc shaped (or in-between the two) depending on your setup parameters.
Actually Utley teaches to not "rotate" or rock the shoulders so much, but instead use hinge in the elbows. He advocates keeping the putter low to the ground through the stroke and any shoulder movement is more rotation around the spine axis. This is different to pure shoulder turn (or rocking) that someone like Tiger uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by dean1234
I have to agree on the height thing. Being 5' 10" I'd have to use a 29" putter and bend over considerably to get any kind of PILs (SBST) stroke without undue manipulation. And also that you should not be consciously thinking about a specific path your putter travels on - your body and setup will determine that. The key is to do drills and use tools that help you identify when you stray what works for you.
I'm traditionally a straight back and straight through guy.
I'm now reading the ClearKey putting ebook and their theory on Reverse Putting Pressure makes a TON of sense to me...I can't wait to see what else they have to say about the putting stroke.