Stack and Tilt

I have never seen the DVDs on S&T but I think I have developed my own version of it. Basicly keeping a little more weight on my front foot, dropping my front shoulder a little bit during the take away and a nice balanced follow through. On short irons, I love it. You come down on the ball crisply, watch the carpet fly and can make the ball bite or even spin it back on the greens easily. The only thing you have to watch out for is coming down to steep and digging a hole in the ground. I go to the range 3-4 nights a week and hit a ton of balls. I have never been able to make fairway woods or the driver work with this method and stick to a more traditional swing for the woods. Anyone else using the S&T swing and have found this?:listen:

i do the exact same thing!!! with my driver and woods, i plant my front foot, keep my weight on it as best as i can, but i dont drop my shoulder, and i swing with a flatter plane. Its like two totally different swings! i actually close my stance on my irons, open it with my wedges, and keep it square with my driver. Of course i havent taken, so what i do may sound bad to someone who is a low handicap!

If I do a lower take away then I dont have to worry about digging a hole but I dont get the spin or get to watch 6 inches of carpet fly ( I love that) as much. For my woods i basicly put more weight on the back foot and keep my head behind the ball a bit and just do a straight back take away and it is pretty consistant. I have watched a couple of youtube videos explaining the stack and tilt driver but it seems complicated and I have not been able to make it work. I have heard the same complaint about the driver with S&T from others. I dont want to have to be thinking of 10 different things on the T block. Just grip it and rip it. But I love it with my irons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by URstillaway

I have never seen the DVDs on S&T but I think I have developed my own version of it. Basicly keeping a little more weight on my front foot, dropping my front shoulder a little bit during the take away and a nice balanced follow through. On short irons, I love it. You come down on the ball crisply, watch the carpet fly and can make the ball bite or even spin it back on the greens easily. The only thing you have to watch out for is coming down to steep and digging a hole in the ground. I go to the range 3-4 nights a week and hit a ton of balls. I have never been able to make fairway woods or the driver work with this method and stick to a more traditional swing for the woods. Anyone else using the S&T swing and have found this?:listen:

---

need more jump/hip thrust on your fairway woods and driver. check out thsi video, will explain it well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXuik...layer_embedded

I tried to get away from the S&T swing because of the problems with driver, woods. I struggled so much that my Handicap went up by 10 and I was not enjoying myself at all anymore so I thought my old S&T swing might be a better fit for me and I decided to just try to correct the problems with the driver/woods. As there was not a nearby instructor that I know of, I bought this book from Amazon.com


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...bL._SL110_.jpg

by Michael Bennett and Andy Plummer

Sometimes a thousand words are better than a video ;->

I have had the book for about two weeks and my game has improved immensely - three birds in a week and two games below 90 and my slice is mostly gone!

The biggest keys I've learned are keeping 60% weight on front foot and bringing the hands back on the takeaway while dropping the front shoulder. These moves have even helped with the driver and woods and my distances have rebounded to where they were two years ago. The key help in the book is the different moves 'feels' are explained by some of the pros that use (or used) this swing.

I gave up on the weight on the front foot thing. I was hitting the ball fat way too much. What is nice is when I went back to a more traditional swing my distance stayed the same. I am not spinning the ball on the green with short irons as much but I am hitting a nice draw. Always a work in progress regardless. :cool

The only guys I know of that teach it are a father/son duo out in Orleans. In fact, that method is all they teach....and that is what I have a serious problem with.

I hate the notion that somebody teaches a "system"... a one size fits all approach for everyone.

I practice out there regularly and have been witness to this sillyness on many occasions. The worst part is seeing them tryng to teach the same exact principles to a single digit handicap teenage boy and a 40 handicap senior woman....especially a swing that goes so against everything that has been taught in golf for the last 100 years. It is a swing and a concept that does not lend itself to any other athletic movement in sport and a swing that basically no professional golfer on any major tour truly employs. Even Sean O'Hair, Aaron Baddeley and the other "poster boys" have completely disassociated themselves with it...and truthfully never really encorporated it completely.

I will get off my soapbox now.

Rant over.

I got a lesson there, not knowing they taught the stack and tilt, they explained that they dont teach the stack and tilt...they teach the golf swing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travis

The only guys I know of that teach it are a father/son duo out in Orleans. In fact, that method is all they teach....and that is what I have a serious problem with.

I hate the notion that somebody teaches a "system"... a one size fits all approach for everyone.

I practice out there regularly and have been witness to this sillyness on many occasions. The worst part is seeing them tryng to teach the same exact principles to a single digit handicap teenage boy and a 40 handicap senior woman....especially a swing that goes so against everything that has been taught in golf for the last 100 years. It is a swing and a concept that does not lend itself to any other athletic movement in sport and a swing that basically no professional golfer on any major tour truly employs. Even Sean O'Hair, Aaron Baddeley and the other "poster boys" have completely disassociated themselves with it...and truthfully never really encorporated it completely.

I will get off my soapbox now.

Rant over.

---

This has to be one of the funniest and most ill-informed posts I have ever read. While your experience with Graham and/or Jeff may not have worked it does not mean the principles do not apply.
Do your homework before talking about what has been taught for 100 years.
If you want to tell me you don't need the majority of your weight forward at impact, to hit the ball before the ground and to hit the ball far enough to play the course then you need to rethink. The problem with "S&T" is in the marketing and people trying to go it alone. I did that. Disaster. Took a clinic from Bennett and Plummer. No difference. Started to work with graham, things improved. Things improved a lot. End of last season played some nine hole rounds in par or around as a 12 cap. Managed a 77 to close out last year,playing a fade based on the principles Graham teaches. A fade with s and t no less!
Haven't had a lesson this year unfortunately but have been putting in the time myself. Have modified some of the components to suit me better, added a few things from the odd internet forum, don't consider myself as a s and t guy any more but what's funny is how many times I am doing something at the range or on the course and then a penny drops and I realize this is what Graham was trying to teach me during our lessons.
Why would the golf swing principles for a teen scratch or 40 cap senior woman be any different. Nice analogy btw...LOL! And I'd be careful when talking about professionals abandoning it. O'Hair worked with Foley. There was more to Badds leaving than results, Apparently. Like guys who pay his sponsor fees getting in his ear. How's JJ Henry look? Troy Matteson any good. If ohair was stacked, how does tiger look these days? I think he looks pretty good! How has our boy Weirsy done since "coming to his senses/ unstacking himself"?Who is he trusting with his comeback?
Rant over

Where did I say getting your weight up on to your front side at impact was a bad idea? Or that making contact with the ball first before making contact with the ground was a bad idea. I didn't. By the way, neither of these principles are exclusive to stack and tilt. They truly are principles of the swing. Just like incorporating a proper grip, stance, alignment and posture are. IMO throwing 90% of your weight to your front foot on your backswing is NOT a principle of the golf swing...and I guess that's where my departure with stack and tilt occurs.

My "analogy" of a scratch handicap vs a 40 cap senior citizen wasn't an analogy at all. One afternoon i was witness to both pupils getting the EXACT same lesson...word for word. Complete with a highschool level geometry class explaining the swing radius and diameter and the accompanying effects that a 10 degree forward press has on all of that...and i guess that is where my departure with their philosophy occurs.

I'm not looking for this to turn into a bash on those guys because they are both very nice and unbelievably talented. I guess at the end of the day your concept and my concept of "the golf swing principles" differ...but maybe not because even you said you're not a stack and tilter anymore.

As for the pros that you highlighted above, I personally think that Tiger's swing is benefiting more from that deliberate cut move he is employing on the downswing more so than where is weight is on the back swing. That slicing motion to the left is something that Haney had been trying to get him to employ for years...particularly with his driver. As for Weir, I think he was headed downhill with the stack and tilt as much as he was after he abandoned it.

This is where so much misconception occurs with S&T... I understand it very well as I am a golf junkie and read everything and talk to lots of folks, but the reason I no longer adhere to the 'model' was that the messaging, due in large part to my original unguided attempt, simply did not work (tilt left, and extend) and caused problems I still have two years on. It makes perfect sense for some, but for me was disastrous. I had to switch the message. I have other concerns - the occasionally dogmatic approach of some involved - but that occurs with everyone (see: Brian Manzella).
The idea of moving 90% of weight to front foot is more a feel. The VAST majority of golfers move off the ball (get behind it, load up that right side) and then spin like a top on the downswing = slice city. When you tell a pupil to feel slightly more weight on the front foot at setup (I still do this) and feel it increasing (not good for me but a good 'feel' for most) it will generally result in a more centered pivot which sees the golfer have more of a chance to return the club to the ball prior to the ground. For me, I have too much weight forward because when the doctor says take an aspirin, I take the whole bottle.
BUT, I also have zero problem when teachers deliver the same message to two vastly different students. Maybe the scratch kid plays a "power fade" and has lots of way right misses but a great short game to compensate. Mrs. Haversham definitely does have the old "load into your right side and fling the club at the ball" problems. Different issue, same net result. So, keep your weight forward, turn your shoulders in a circle, , let your right leg straighten (vs Jim Maclean keep it flexed and create x factor...) to allow your hips to turn and get your arms going back, up and in and returning from the inside, initiate the downswing/ "slide the hips" forward (gets weight going left) and let the club do the work (maintain the wedge). The best players with the most consistent ballstriking ability have done this for years. Can you move off the ball? Sure...see it on tour. But don't forget that on tour these guys are freaks who have grooved a move and are supremely gifted athletes. I have been told the tour average for a 5 iron is less than 1" of lateral head movement in the swing. That's pretty steady/centered.
I'm glad you removed your observation about grip, alignment, stance etc cuz while that MAY have an effect, it's minimal and very individual (see Azinger grip vs Tiger 2000 grip or Hogan alignment vs Trevino)
Tiger may be swinging left and playing a cut (and the idea that Haney was trying to get him to do that is a stretch as he is obsessed with parallel lines and blah blah blah) but every principle is there...just like it is for, say, Dustin Johnson or Zach Johnson.
So, as I said, the messaging didn't work for you, which is fine. You wrote two posts directed at your experience the first of which I ignored but then a second where you refer to sillyness , imply that golfers with vastly different skillsets cannot benefit form the same information, stack and tilt goes against everything taught for 100 years, etc. I know and have nothing but time for Graham, couldn't sit quiet any more...Gregg is a great teacher, he knows me and knows I have nothing but admiration for for him as a teacher and golf nut. He hits the ball a mile for wee guy. Interestingly, so does Gunner, who also happens to be 55ish, not too big himself, and is still schooling a lot of the younger guys on most days. And it's not like these are the only two good teachers out there. I have had great experiences with lots of the local pros, and recommend them all to folks.

S&T should of never marketed themselves the way they did and none of these debates would occur. Alot of the components in every "type" of golf swing match up, even if the player doesn't realize it. Gotta love this game though, so many ways to do it.

Very true. Golf Digest article was a disaster. To be honest, the first DVD didn't help much either. In person/ hands on still is, in my opinion, the only way to properly explore the "model" if you want to pursue it. Apparently the new DVD is really well done.
Curtis Strange, Craig Parry and Jim Furyk agree with your last remark...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Domo

experience with Graham and/or Jeff

---

Where do they teach from? I'd like to use them for my spring tune-up in 2013. I need more practice but have been hitting some awesome iron shots recently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stevek

Where do they teach from? I'd like to use them for my spring tune-up in 2013. I need more practice but have been hitting some awesome iron shots recently.

---

They are at White Sands in Orleans. Great practice facility. Graham also has run a winter school the last couple of years. It's a technique, not bash balls approach during the winter...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Domo

They are at White Sands in Orleans. Great practice facility. Graham also has run a winter school the last couple of years. It's a technique, not bash balls approach during the winter...

---

Thx Domo

Couldn't see any of my hits in 2013 until after my cataract surgeries; so there was no point in lessons as practice was impossible.

Finally got out for a lesson from Graham Tuesday and he gave me 4 things to work on before my next visit. That night, without any real serious range time I played two practice holes before men's night and bombed my best drives of the year. (to 100yd marker on Premiere 10 with a GIR and Down to the mid-plateau on 11 - both from the blacks.) I still have much work to do as I was only using one of the 4 things to work on and lost it before finishing the 9 holes but am very encouraged. Graham thought I might be an easier fix as I didn't fall back on the backswing at all as 99% golfers apparently do. I just had too much forward tilt. Can't wait for my second of three lessons - very recommended for any S&T or Pure Strike belivers.

His teaching method is very hands on so you can feel what you're supposed to be doing and that seems to be required for me.

Did the winter school with Graham and have had a few tweaks at the range.

Totally worth the money and will be repeating, great teacher, great method.

One of the issues I see with s&t is the club gets behind the forearms on the way back getting stuck or way too much from inside, this leads to blocks and hooks. try and get the club up between the forearms on the back swing. I dont belief s&t should be flat and stuck. You can stack but with proper plane.