New Forum or Thread: Condition at Local Courses, Reviews

I would like to start a thread on the playing condition of local courses. There is alot of owner-driven marketing out there, but lets cut to the chase, what do the players think? Where did you play, what condition was it in, was it worth the money? I admit, my pet peeve is the tees and pace of play. Post a sub-thread, if you can, discussing different courses.

Why don't I start:

Emerald Links: The tee boxes need alot of work, 18th tee should be a hazard. Played a six hour round one afternoon on twilight rate. I'd never pay full price until they work on this.

Meadows: Love the South/West combination. Unfortunately, if a tournament is going on you get thrown on the North/East. The rough needs to grow in. Best value on most days and pace of play is steady.

Loyalist (Bath, ON past Kingston): Best $45 round played this year. Amazing greens, front nine is best, back is a housing development. Amazing greens (oh, I said that). Great Tees.

Seeking Reviews:

Greyhawk

Cedarhill

Mississippi

Thanks to all, let's support some user-based input to mediate the brochure type course ratings and descriptions.

Michael.

I must admit I am a bit nervous about this thread. I certainly hope that this does not turn into a "trash the courses" platform. Most of the courses advertise with us and I am sure you will all understand that it would not be in OttawaGolf's best interests to let this run amok. Without the courses "brochures" this site would cease to exist.

Comments like "what a joke" or other insults should be left at the door. Rants will not be tolerated. Feel free to make whatever comments you like, but be nice about it and do not exagerate the negative please.

Please try to comment on the good things you see out there. I am sure we would all rather hear where conditions are outsanding rather than listen to someone whine about a six hour round in the heat. (Like getting caught in the rain, that happens to all of us) Let's keep it upbeat.

Thank you for your co-operation.

I understand your dilemma Dan, but let's face it, without feedback from the paying public, course managers and superintendents will have less incentive to meet the expectations of the golfers. I will try to be generous and fair, but I'm not happy with the way I've been treated by the staff at some of the courses. (and that's not because I have an attitude, I doubt any of them would recognize me as one of the ones that raise a ruckus).

I've played quite a few of the places in the west end. I think many of them have ignored the poor conditions of MANY of their greens. I'm paying full summer green fee rates, and I see large areas of many greens which have not recovered from winter mold (mould?). At the same time, they all have expansive turf nurseries that are not being used. There are even some of the courses where there are large expanses of fairway that look more like ground under repair than fairway.

If ANY of them were to acknowledge these conditions to their patrons, and make ANY indication that there would be improvement, then I'm sure most of us could live with it. (Even better if they make some kind of an accommodation, -bucket of balls, -free coke at the halfway house, you'd be surprised how many golfers respond positively to such gestures). Many of these courses have reputations for excellent conditions, but, do we have to wait until September before we get our money's worth? We have courses charging $45, $55 and $65 for conditions that we can get at a $25 course (and some can even beat them, at least in the customer service department).

Cloverdale Links... I was pleased with the value and the conditions. They have some turf that needs work, but the price doesn't grind on you for it. A real gem for the weekend golfer.

Loch March still has the best service and attitude in the public market. Their course is still not up to last year's standard.

Canadian says thank you for your money. We HOPE you'll be back again soon. The new hole is VERY nice, perhaps a few more like that can make a real impact on their clientele. A lot of greens here could use some attention.

Emerald Links.. I must concur with the above comments. They have the capacity to be a much better value. The marshals and the staff are very courteous, but the course has been MUCH better in previous years.

Glen Mar... I was very pleased with the value of this course, and they had the least mould problem of any course I've played this year... high marks to them.

Pakenham... another place I expect a lot from, and was not rewarded. I agree their price point doesn't antagonize me, but I have played that place in MUCH better condition than it was this year.

Manderley... I was pleased that their course was in much the same condition as I remember it from previous years. I think the course could use some work, but I was not disappointed with the condition.

Irish Hills... a fair value for the money, but another course that's struggling with getting their turf back to life. I even played a temporary green there, and there was no notice either on the tee, nor in the clubhouse. I think that's unfair.

As a final comment, I support golf in Ottawa. I think we have a large number of good courses in the region. In good years, I'm proud to bring my guests to nearly any of the public or semi-private courses in the area. Unfortunately, this is not one of the good years, and the fact that area courses are holding their breath, hoping we don't notice, is not raising their stature in my opinion.

spidey

Agreed on Cloverdale, It is in good shape this year and is maturing well. Good from the Blue tees. Greens are nice. Very challenging with some wind.

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I understand your dilemma Dan, but let's face it, without feedback from the paying public, course managers and superintendents will have less incentive to meet the expectations of the golfers.

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I am not entirely convinced of this. As you can imagine I talk to owners pretty regularly, and I don't know of any that do not care deeply about the condition of thier courses. Sometimes Mother nature throws them a curve.

Take Champlain for example. Early this season people came to this board and ragged on them for poor greens. Nobody mentioned that they gave a free 18 hole pass for another game to every green fee player for months while the greens recovered from poor tarps that were purchased in the fall and used to cover the greens over the winter. The owner went to great expence to put these tarps on and they were a disaster. Hard to fault him for that. He reseeded every green on the course - more $, add in the free passes and these folks are having a bad year. Yet the flames came.

All I am saying is the owners care a lot more than you think.

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All I am saying is the owners care a lot more than you think.

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There are always two sides. I don't necessarily disagree with you, obviously it hits them in the pocketbook if nobody comes. I congratulate the Champlain on their effort, I haven't been there yet this year, I didn't know about it.

I guess my point, which I'm sure you understand, is that if you have a course that's a bit ragged, and you charge full rates, and people still come.... then what's your incentive to pour more cash into reparations? Perhaps the course owners think we can read their minds when it comes to their intentions on bringing their properties up to snuff.

Personally, I think that if Champlain hadn't done what they did to appease their patrons, they would have had a LOT more people calling foul on them. I agree you can't placate all the people, and the squeaky wheel gets all the press, but... the rest of us guys/gals who don't whine in the pro shop feel just as slighted, and appreciate the gestures a helluva lot more than the whiners.

Obviously, I'm not in the accounting department of any of the courses around here, so I can't comment on the average practice of investing back into the course. But, as an avid Ottawa golfer (not a professional architect, nor management consultant), I see a lot of opportunities for golf course owners to upgrade their portfolios.

I sympathize with the owners to the extent that Mother Nature is not always on their side. I remember a couple of years ago, we had a bad winter kill year, and some of the courses admitted it, and gave minor discounts, and posted notices of temporary greens. I appreciated that. Maybe others wouldn't.

On the other hand, there are a lot of teeboxes out there that haven't supported a population of grass for years. There are more dust clouds than divots on the tee. ALL teeing areas on golf courses average 2% or so of the total land cultivated on a course. And yet, they have a sign in the pro shop that proudly proclaims them 'spikeless'. hm. Does this show me that the owners care deeply about their courses?

I stood up on the first tee at the Stonebridge. Nice place. They had some problems too, but I can see them working on them. I can afford to go there during the $45 rates and I appreciate their work. I'll be happy to go back to show my support. (btw, they have the best scorecard in the region, congrats Stonebridge)

spidey

Stonebridge just abandoned their $65 peak time green fee for this year and made it $55. It is coming along nicely.

There is another dilema for the owners too, in that the more one discounts the golf for situations that you cannot control, like winter kill, the harder it is to keep the course running, and make the needed improvements. If you don't discount, or don't put money into the course, they may not come back. It is a very tough call, and the golfer rarely sees the balancing act. This is a competitive market with lots of courses.

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Originally posted by michaeld
Meadows: Love the South/West combination. Unfortunately, if a tournament is going on you get thrown on the North/East.

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It is Meadows policy to change the course combinations every day, whether or not they are holding a tournament. The Director of Golf decides on the course combinations three days in advance when the tee-off sheets are prepared.

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Personally, I think that if Champlain hadn't done what they did to appease their patrons, they would have had a LOT more people calling foul on them.

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Unfortunately, that is quite true. What really is ironic is that they were trying to improve the course by buying all new tarps, and protecting the greens over winter that would end up being percived as a foul.

Overall I think that the price and conditions balance is pretty good in this area. We should all be at least a bit thankfull that we do not live in Toronto where Eagle Creek, Loch March and Stonebridge would all be over $150. I wonder what you get to play on for $35 in TO these days :) Anyone played there? Geez I just realized I have never played in Toronto.

Played at Montebello last week. That is such an awesome course. It is in fine shape too. :)

I was at Mandelay 2 weeks ago on the weekend. The course was in great shape. Only downfall was how packed it was. At hole #5 there was 5 groups waiting to tee off and the average on every other hole was 2-3 groups just sitting there. When you tee'd off you fealt like you were in the PGA with all these people staring at you.
I love that course, just wish they wouldn't try to cram as many people as they can.

I still go to Pineview a lot. It may not be a 5 star course, but its 10 minutes from where i live, and frankly its cheap.
I really wish they would take care of the course, its always brown, and generally seems that they never take care of it which is a shame.

My favorite course Nation is in GREAT shape! I reccomend anyone who hasn't payed there to go ASAP. What a spectacular course.

Dustin

I would have to agree with the slow play comment about Manderly - 2 weeks ago I was also there, tee'd off at 10:30am and it almost took 6 HOURS!!!! As for the conditions, I would say it is in only fair shape compared to many other courses in the area.

The Meadows is great - I personally wont play the North/East course again - the back nine doesnt support my distance. The South/West is wonderful!!

I played Hammond this past monday - great track!! A little slow on the front, but, it opened up on the back. The greens are in super conditions and are a little fast - makes for an interesting challenge. I liked the layout.

Cloverdale is pretty fun as well - I love the fact that the wind hits you from so many different angles throughout the day - and, a links style course is a nice change from the norm. There are many challenging par 3's and there is a par 5 over water where you can go for the green in 2 , if you are long and accurate. The greens are in good conditions which just a bit of patchiness on a few of the fairways - I will definitely paly it again this year.

I played The Nation - I am not particularily fussy on this course - the 18th hole - a par 3 surrounded in front by water is kinda neat - but "Mickey-Mouse-ish" at the same time - it is a little too short for my liking - less than 105 yards I would say. Still, not a bad track.

6 hours to play 18? Sheesh i would have been in heavan. It took 4.5 to play 9 holes if you can belive it. In the entire 4.5 hours not one marshall drove by. Needless to say we left after 9. Would have left after 3 holes but no Marshall anywhere in site and didn't want to leave the course in case we couldn't get out money back.

Its tough being a broke student :)
Dustin

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Dan indicates...
We should all be at least a bit thankfull that we do not live in Toronto where Eagle Creek, Loch March and Stonebridge would all be over $150.

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Well, I guess I've been known to say that in Toronto they have more money than brains. I suppose it's good if they invest the superfluous greens fees back into the course, but I bet they just skim it off as profit.

Bethpage Black (which is next year's US Open venue) charges US$31 Can$45 (US$39 on weekends). I'm glad we're not in an overpriced golf market. Somehow, I'm not reassured that the owners would put the excess profits back into the course to improve the playing conditions.

Manderley has been on the Ottawa scene for 20 or more years. The cart paths are the same. They've only redesigned one hole, and even then all they did was add a green and turn the old one into a rough. I can recognize some of the rocks in the bunkers from 15 years ago. The clubhouse is exactly the same as it ever was, except they moved the pro shop out to the old office.

I think it's great that places like Pakenham, Glen Mar, Eagle Creek (except for that behemoth of a condemned clubhouse), and begrudgingly the Canadian, are obviously investing in improvements to their courses and facilities.

But, on the other hand, many places do nothing! I would think that adding some sand to the bunkers is a cheap move that really improves the appreciation of a course. Why can't they strip a few pelts off their bentgrass nurseries to hasten the playability of some of their greens. Can't they each fix their worst green or tee each year, so that over the course of a few years we can see them working to improve their courses. And finally, I think most of the places with slow paces of play would rather send the beverage cart around a few more times, than speed up play. The cart personnel don't have any mandate to be expeditious, in fact, the more people they stop, the more tips they're apt to collect! (Bravo to Stonebridge for their pace of play commitments - I played in exactly 4 1/2 leisurely, enjoyable hours!)

I really dislike some of the design of some of the more established courses in the area. Places like Riverbend, Metcalfe, Irish Hills, Edgewood, Manderley, Poplar Grove, Pineview...... etc. None of these places are going to go down in golf history as having classic architecture, yet surprisingly, none of them make any improvements to their courses from year to year. Look how a great hole or two at Pakenham or the Nation can really bring crowds to your property. Unfortunately, just as there are course owners who care deeply about their businesses, there are owners all across the spectrum.

Look at the Meadows, they built up to 36 holes, they have challenge for high and low handicappers and a beautiful facility. Wouldn't it be great to have a 'Meadows' at all 4 corners of the region????

<stepping off soapbox>

spidey

A note on GreyHawk: The layout is very good, always challenging. The turf is not in great shape, and the greens have suffered alot last winter. Played very fast though, nobody else was out there. I think Clublink is focussing funds on the Predator, will be seeded in July for next summer opening. I spoke with a member who hopes maintenance will shift to GreyHawk after the Predator is complete.

CedarHill: Was in good shape, although the greens were just aerated, the plugs were left in. They turned on the sprinklers for the greens in the order of play: Our group was following the flow so played fairways and greens only. Shortish. If you can get a good price, it may be fun.

ok guys....read all the comments on course conditions and had to add one course that HAS done things to enhance the conditions of their course. This being Mont Cascades....a drive from Nepean takes about the same time as going to Pakenham (40-45 min).
Course in excellent condition. I f you've been there in the past you 'll love it now.

New golf pro has done lots of improvements so far this year and should only get better. Greens are faster and roll very nice. Fairways are green and rough is tough. Add to it some environmental areas makes the round even more difficult. Not a long course at 6200 yrds from the back tees but lots of elevation and its awsome scenery is one heck of of day.

Other courses that are in good condition : Pakenham (love the Canyon course), obviously Eagle Creek is in good condition and played Stonebridge which was in great condition for the most part, greens on the back nine need some maturing but for a new course ......thumbs up!!!

A few reviews that might help my fellow green fee schlepps:

Loch March- consistently good. A good challenge for even the most skilled player. A great treat and the best halfway burg around! A good value for the $.

Stonebridge- Hail to the gods!!! Many courses could learn a few simple things from these guys. This is where my money goes for the pace of play alone. The rest of the package is pure delight.

Hammond- A good track for the buck! This is not Pinehurst#2 but yet a decent challenge considering the price. A great value for those on a budget.

Nation- A fair course. Some hole designs are a bit curious and don't do much for pace of play( #1, #3,#10 and # 11). A fair value but plays slow for it's length.

Cascades- Spectacular scenery and a great day trip. The back 9 is a good test.you can really score on the front. A good value.

Canadian- Boys give your head a shake. Slow play...slow play.. s..l....o......w. A great value if you are trying to talk somebody into buying something.Lord knows you'll have the time.

Chateau Cartier- $46?????????$46??????Terrible conditions, 0 marshalls, greens like a city street with bigger potholes...Fairways???Hello??the starter was a great guy though.

Dome- great conditions, good test of your game, a little short but accuracy is a must to score well. Is a bit pricey on weekends. Overall a B+.

Greyhawk- Every time I decide to give this track another chance...BOOM! Currently under serious repair. Call me when it's ready.

The creek- Killer rough, great conditions, good managemetnt and supervision on the course, a great course for the dollar once you consider what you get in T.O( said as if they're realistic in greedy town). The pints are always cold and that IS the cherry on the cake.

Outaouais- a really good test of your game. Lightning fast greens and spinach-like rough really make you work hard. A good value but can't be played on weekends. What a shame! One of my favorites.

Upper Canada is in great condition. The greens are particularly quick, and the pace of play is not too bad either. High marks for them - worth the trip down.

spidey