Complete relief (cart path)

Tee shot is hit to the right, comes to rest on the cart path (right edge of it.)

Player can't hit his ball because it's on the cart path, so he needs relief.

Player marks his ball and takes a drop at the nearest point of relief which is a couple of feet right of the cart path.

Before he hits his shot, a fellow competitor says his feet are still on the cart path so he has to redrop and take complete relief.

Player was not aware, I was not aware, I can't find it in the USGA rules either. Is there really a penalty for hitting a shot while your feet are on the cart path after the drop?

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Player can't hit his ball because it's on the cart path, so he needs relief.

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Sure you can hit a ball from a path. I have done it many times when relief options are worse.

You must take complete relief if you chose to take relief. That means no interference from the path - stance or swing.

I know this situation happened yesterday and was done properly. When taking relief from an obstruction you must take full relief. Many players don't know or understand this ruling.

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Rule 20-2
c. When to Re-Drop

A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:

(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);

Thanks Dan and Gerry; I get it now. In the situation yesterday the player was worse off taking complete relief from the cart path because it meant he had to get closer to a tree. But if that's the rule, then that's the rule. Learn something new every day. :)

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Originally Posted by nokids

Thanks Dan and Gerry; I get it now. In the situation yesterday the player was worse off taking complete relief from the cart path because it meant he had to get closer to a tree. But if that's the rule, then that's the rule. Learn something new every day. :)

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That is why he should have hit the ball from the cart path... like Dan mention!

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Originally Posted by nokids

Player was not aware, I was not aware, I can't find it in the USGA rules either. Is there really a penalty for hitting a shot while your feet are on the cart path after the drop?

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The ball must hit the ground(through the green) between the nearest point of relief and a point up to 1 club length from the NPR, not nearer the hole. Since the feet were still on the cart path after the drop, the player would have played from a wrong place, (Rule 20-7(c)) for which the penalty is 2 strokes, and, IF he gained a significant advantage by playing from the wrong place, he would be disqualified.

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

The ball must hit the ground(through the green) between the nearest point of relief and a point up to 1 club length from the NPR, not nearer the hole. Since the feet were still on the cart path after the drop, the player would have played from a wrong place, (Rule 20-7(c)) for which the penalty is 2 strokes, and, IF he gained a significant advantage by playing from the wrong place, he would be disqualified.

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I'm curious how "significant advantage" would be defined. I'd think that you can't get more than a stroke advantage by playing from the partial relief spot as opposed to not dropping at all... after all, you can always putt the ball to a better location.

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Originally Posted by Ruskie

I'm curious how "significant advantage" would be defined. I'd think that you can't get more than a stroke advantage by playing from the partial relief spot as opposed to not dropping at all... after all, you can always putt the ball to a better location.

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Okay, lets say you're a right-handed player, and your NPR is to the right of the obstruction (cart path). The first 2 or 3 feet to the right of the path is flat and level, and the grass is evenly cut. After that point the grade drops off sharply and the grass is much longer. Player makes his drop and the ball stops on the level area. He takes his stance and his heels are still touching the path, but he elects to play from there anyway because if he re-drops he knows his ball will end up on the downhill, sidehill lie in the long rough. The significant advantage is that he played from a much better lie than he was entitled to, and greatly increased his chances of playing a good shot.

good example LW

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Originally Posted by nokids

good example LW

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It is. Most "significant advantages" occur when a player drops a ball where it may have been lost or gone out of bounds, instead of taking the required stroke and distance penalty. "I'm not going back; I'll just play one here and add two strokes," is an oft heard quote when this occurs.

In LW's example (I think I know the answer already, but humour me) could the player get his feet very close to the ball and hit in the desireable spot with his feet not on the cart path? I believe you have to take your normal club and stance you would take if the obstruction wasn't there.

Ah, ok, I can certainly see the problem with the OB drop, but in LW example, would it simply be a 2-stroke penalty and not DQ? I'm thinking 2 strokes is enough punishment for that type of transgression...

As a side note, if I were to drop the ball at the point of entry into OB, as in BC's example, wouldn't there be other stroke-based penalties assessed in addition to playing from the wrong place? Illegal drop? Not taking the "distance" portion of stroke-distance penalty? Or is it simply DQ at this point?

The rule is 20-7 Playing from Wrong Place.
It would simply be loss of hole in match play.
In stroke play a two stroke penalty. If a SB, then DQ.

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Originally Posted by Sakuraba

In LW's example (I think I know the answer already, but humour me) could the player get his feet very close to the ball and hit in the desireable spot with his feet not on the cart path? I believe you have to take your normal club and stance you would take if the obstruction wasn't there.

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You may not use an unreasonable or abnormal stance or swing.

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Originally Posted by Ruskie

Ah, ok, I can certainly see the problem with the OB drop, but in LW example, would it simply be a 2-stroke penalty and not DQ? I'm thinking 2 strokes is enough punishment for that type of transgression...

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It depends on the situation. If the lies were essentially similar in my situation, then the 2-stroke penalty would more than likely suffice. But the lies I described were radically different, and the player was afforded a much higher likelyhood of success in playing from the wrong place.

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Originally Posted by nokids

Tee shot is hit to the right, comes to rest on the cart path (right edge of it.)

Player can't hit his ball because it's on the cart path, so he needs relief.

Player marks his ball and takes a drop at the nearest point of relief which is a couple of feet right of the cart path.

Before he hits his shot, a fellow competitor says his feet are still on the cart path so he has to redrop and take complete relief.

Player was not aware, I was not aware, I can't find it in the USGA rules either. Is there really a penalty for hitting a shot while your feet are on the cart path after the drop?

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I'm curious, why would you mark the ball?

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Originally Posted by PapaPat

I'm curious, why would you mark the ball?

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In case there is a dispute about the npr. But it would be better to leave the ball where it is until it is determined that the relief is a better option than playing it as it lies.
Picking it up, whether marked or not, means a penalty if you change your mind.

I like to have the player leave the ball until ready to drop and as AAA says it may not be beneficial to take the drop and if it's at least marked and they happen to change their mind they know exactly where the ball was. It does no harm to mark it.

Well, I agree with both of you. Time after time, I see players walk up to a ball on a path, mark it, and only then start to think about what and where they can or are going to do something. When working with juniors especially, the first thing I tell them as they approach the ball, is do not touch the ball. Then I have them proceed to work out with what they are going to do. I would prefer that they not go through a meaningless marking in order to try to ensure that they understand that they can not put it back without penalty. I knew that both of you knew that, but as the questioner made a point of mentioning marking, I thought that this was an opportunity to make the point that you both did. Between the three of us, I think we have explained that a player should think about what they are going to do before picking up the ball to take relief, and since it is not going back to the spot from which it was lifted, there is no need to mark it.

I didnt know about the penalty but if i mark the ball it's because i am sure that i am not going to be playing the ball as it lies. 0 % chance i put the ball back. I'd drop it and hit that shot. Thanks for bringing it up papapat.

Just to wrap up the point in an official way, this is what Rule 20-1 says:

"The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced."

Rule 24 is not a rule that requires you to mark a ball. In fact it does not permit you to lift a ball without taking relief.

If it is lifted (whether marked or not) and relief is not taken, the ball must be replaced with a 1 stroke penalty. Dec 18-2a/12

Thanks for completing my post. I should have also included your first sentence.:thumbsup