Rating? Slope? Handicap??

What do all these numbers mean? I was on a par four the other day and it said HCP 11... what does that mean?

What does it mean when course A has a slope of 125 and course B has a slope of 128? Does that mean the course B is harder?

What does it mean if course RATING of 68? Isn't it a par 72? So I'm assuming a course with a 71 rating is higher than a course with a 69 rating? Can a course with a Higher rating than another have a lower slope? I know that a course that is 6500 yrds might not be as hard as a course that is 6300 yards because it would depend on the holes. Is there anyway to tell which courses are harder than others... other than playing them? If so, how and what courses in ottawa are harder than the rest based on those numbers.

thanks

You are basically correct. When a hole has a HCP # it refers to the difficulty of the hole in relation to the others on the course. So hole w/ HCP #1 is the most difficult and hole w/ HCP #18 is the easiest. As for the slope I think it refers generally to the terrain of the course. More ondulations on the fairways and greens make for a higher slope. The rating is a score a scratch golfer on average in relation to par they would shoot when they played that course. So the lower the rating to par I guess you could say the easier the course. When I compare courses I generally use the rating to determine difficulty. Hope this helps.

Slope refers to the relative difficulty of the course for a non-scratch player. E.g. a course with 71 rating and slope of 115 would be easier for a 20 handicap than a course with 71 rating and slope of 130, even though a scratch player would expect to shoot 71 on both. Terrain undulations are unrelated to the "slope", but might factor in as in determining the difficulty of the course.

About Golf (http://golf.about.com) is a very good reference site. Their definition of 'slope' is:

USGA Slope Rating is a number ranging from 55 to 155 that represents the difficulty of a course for bogey golfers relative to the USGA Course Rating (which represents the difficulty for scratch golfers).


Slope rating is not expressed in strokes, but, rather, is a ratio. The higher the slope, the more difficult the course plays for bogey golfers. A slope rating of 113 is considered average. Slope rating plays an important role in figuring handicap indexes and also is used to figure course handicaps.

Thanks for pointing that out Krolik. I was never told what slope refered to but I guess it is just coincidence that most courses with more rolling terrain have higher slope ratings. I just assumed "slope" refered to the terrain. Thanks again, good to know.

I'll use glen mar and the canadian as examples.

Course -rating -slope -yards
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Glenmar - 69.1 - 115 - 6130

Canadian -66.8 - 118 - 5844

So what can you tell just from looking at those numbers?

The yardage is pretty irrelevant. With different tee boxes you can pick your yardage and the slope and rating adjust accordingly. I believe GlenMar is a par 71 so the rating being a few strokes under par and the slope being around 115 you would assume the course is a fair challenge. The Canadian being a par 72 with a rating of 66 and a slope of 115ish you would think that the Canadian is an easier track. Personally I would have to agree, I have shot much better scores at the Canadian than GlenMar.

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Originally Posted by GJohnston69

You are basically correct. When a hole has a HCP # it refers to the difficulty of the hole in relation to the others on the course. So hole w/ HCP #1 is the most difficult and hole w/ HCP #18 is the easiest. As for the slope I think it refers generally to the terrain of the course. More ondulations on the fairways and greens make for a higher slope. The rating is a score a scratch golfer on average in relation to par they would shoot when they played that course. So the lower the rating to par I guess you could say the easier the course. When I compare courses I generally use the rating to determine difficulty. Hope this helps.

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I am sure that this has changed over the years but the handicap rating did not always reflect the hardest to easiest holes. On many courses the low rated holes are the par 5's. We know them as the longest holes but also the easiest to par or birdie for the better player. So why a low digit rating? The truth is that a higher handicap player IS MORE LIKELY to take more strokes, the longer the hole is, and therefore needs more strokes here when playing a match against a low handicap player. For example, a 200 yard par 3 may be a difficult hole, but the higher handicapped player can still get close to the green in 1, but put him on a 550 yard par 5 and the chances of his screwing up a couple of shots are quite good, therefore, for him, the long hole is more difficult.

I believe that currently, many clubs keep track of members scores over a period of time and then rate their holes based on the average numbers of strokes over par relative to the others. This seems to be a reasonable way of ranking the holes from hard to easy, but is it reasonable that the high handicapper needs more strokes on the shorter but more challenging holes?? Not necessarily true.

Long definitions and explanations but you'll find the RCGA Slope Rating explanation pretty interesting and useful. Taken from http://www.gao.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/1221/la_id/1.htm

By the way I'm the Director of Handicapping at my club ;)


Bogey Golfer -A player with a RCGA Handicap Factor of 17.5 to 22.4 strokes for men and 21.5 to 26.4 for women. Under normal situations the male bogey golfer can hit his tee shot 200 yards and can reach a 370-yard hole in two shots. Likewise, the female bogey golfer can hit her tee shot 150 yards and can reach a 280-yard hole in two shots. Players who have a Handicap Factor between the parameters above but are unusually long or short off the tee are not considered to be a bogey golfer for course rating purposes.

Scratch Golfer - An amateur player who plays to the standard of the stroke play qualifiers competing in the United States Amateur Championship/Canadian Amateur. The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots. The female scratch golfer can hit her tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots.

RCGA Course Rating - An evaluation of the overall difficulty of the golf course under normal course and weather conditions for the scratch golfer. This figure is equal to the average of the better half of a scratch golfers scores.

Bogey Course Rating - An evaluation of the overall difficulty of the golf course under normal course and weather conditions for the bogey golfer. The bogey rating is equal to the average of the better half of a bogey golfers scores.

RCGA Slope Rating -The RCGA's mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty of a course for players who are not scratch golfers compared to the Course Rating. The lowest Slope rating is 55 and the highest is 155. A golf course of standard playing difficulty has a RCGA Slope Rating of 113.

RCGA Slope Rating =(Bogey Course Rating-RCGA Course Rating) x 5.381 for men or 4.24 for women.
The Course Rating for either golfer is determined by adding the yardage rating to the obstacle stroke value for that golfer.
Scratch Yardage Rating (Male) = (Scratch male effective playing length/220) + 40.9
Scratch Yardage Rating (Female) = (Scratch female effective playing length/180) + 40.1
Bogey Yardage Rating (Male) = (Bogey male effective playing length/160) + 50.7
Bogey Yardage Rating (Female) = (Bogey female effective playing length/120) + 51.3

The effective playing length for each golfer is derived by adding the measured yardage of the course to any adjustments made for elevation, roll, forced lay-ups, wind, and altitude. Adjustments are made to the measured yardage if there is any elevation change from tee to green (elevation), if there is a prevailing wind and is it a factor (wind), if the fairway landing areas are hard or soft or if the tee shots land into an up-slope or on a downslope (roll), if an obstacle or combination of obstacles prevent a golfer from playing a full length shot (forced lay-up), and if the course is located more than 2000 feet above sea level (altitude).

The obstacle stroke value is a numerical evaluation of all obstacles (topography, fairway, green target, recovery and rough, bunkers, out of bounds, water, trees, green surface, and psychology) on the golf course. It is also highly probable that the Obstacle stroke value of the two golfers will be different. Generally, the nearer the obstacles are to the landing zones the higher the rating values.

Course Rating
When a golf course is rated, the rating team will evaluate the overall difficulty of the golf course for both a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer. The rating established for the scratch golfer is known as the Course Rating. There is also a rating for the bogey player known as the Bogey Rating. This Bogey Rating is not normally published but is used to determine a Slope Rating. The Slope Rating is an evaluation of the relative difficulty of a course for players other than scratch.

During the Course Rating procedure the rating team will evaluate the ten obstacles and effective length corrections on every hole. We recommend that each rating team play the golf course either before or after the rating procedure in order to gain further insight into the overall difficulty of the golf course.

The RCGA Course and Slope Ratings are then calculated and certified by the provincial/regional/district golf associations before they are issued to the club.

This is so confusing. So the rating tells you how hard the course is... or is it the slope that tells me how hard the course is? Because glen mar and the canadian are both par 72's. One has a higher slope but the other has a higher rating. So does that mean that glen mar would be harder for a scratch golfer and canadian would be harder for a boogie golfer? I'm completely lost. Reading golf rules and definitions is like doing one of those LSAT or GMAT questions. X is twice as big as y but y is bigger than z and blah blah blah. So confusing

Oh, I've shot 96 twice at the canadian and 101 at glen mar and I felt I played equally well those 3 times so I agree, glenmar is more difficult

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thotho

This is so confusing. So the rating tells you how hard the course is... or is it the slope that tells me how hard the course is? Because glen mar and the canadian are both par 72's. One has a higher slope but the other has a higher rating. So does that mean that glen mar would be harder for a scratch golfer and canadian would be harder for a boogie golfer? I'm completely lost. Reading golf rules and definitions is like doing one of those LSAT or GMAT questions. X is twice as big as y but y is bigger than z and blah blah blah. So confusing

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RCGA Course Rating - An evaluation of the overall difficulty of the golf course under normal course and weather conditions for the scratch golfer.

RCGA Slope Rating -The RCGA's mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty of a course for players who are not scratch golfers compared to the Course Rating. Slope of 113 being the "norm" for a bogey golfer.

Is that simpler??

So, glen mar is more dificult for a scratch golfer because its rating his higher and and canadian is more dificult for me (high 90s golfer) its slope is higher?

So you can't say one is harder or easier beacuse it depends on who we are talking about first? That doesn't make sense. Woudn't a course that is harder for a scratch golfer be harder for me as well? Or and I'm not reading this right

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thotho

So, glen mar is more dificult for a scratch golfer because its rating his higher and and canadian is more dificult for me (high 90s golfer) its slope is higher?

So you can't say one is harder or easier beacuse it depends on who we are talking about first? That doesn't make sense. Woudn't a course that is harder for a scratch golfer be harder for me as well? Or and I'm not reading this right

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If the slope a course is higher, it means that it is that much more difficult for a bogey golfer than a scratch golfer. So the higher the slope, the more difficult it will be.

As for the rating, it takes into consideration a variety of factors within the course itself. So look for the slope and it'll give you a good indication of the difficulty of said course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thotho

So, glen mar is more dificult for a scratch golfer because its rating his higher and and canadian is more dificult for me (high 90s golfer) its slope is higher?

So you can't say one is harder or easier beacuse it depends on who we are talking about first? That doesn't make sense. Woudn't a course that is harder for a scratch golfer be harder for me as well? Or and I'm not reading this right

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It's not about "easier or harder" really from what I can see (in terms of how the two numbers co-relate). It's about scoring probability.

Scoring well on Canadian might be easier because their greens are fairly level, this would apply for both scratch and bogey golfer though. So maybe it's only easier for the scratch golfer, because he can carry the water that may befall the bogey golfer?

Maybe the greens are tough at Glen Mar (which affects both the scratch and bogey golfer), or maybe there's less "penalty trouble" or something.

I'm confused now, and I always told myself to never get caught up in those numbers... Damn you THOTHO!! :-)

Dan

ahah dan, I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by this!!! So the canadian is harder but just from playing it I can tell its soo much easier than glen mar. Other than the fact that its narrow... glen mar has it beat in every way I can think of. hard to read and fast greens, crazy rolling fairways. Wide open so they wind just kills your ball. I'm still kinda confused but based on all this, the higher the slow the harder the course for someone like me boogie + golfer

thanks guys :)

PS yourwelcome dan ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thotho

ahah dan, I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by this!!! So the canadian is harder but just from playing it I can tell its soo much easier than glen mar. Other than the fact that its narrow... glen mar has it beat in every way I can think of. hard to read and fast greens, crazy rolling fairways. Wide open so they wind just kills your ball. I'm still kinda confused but based on all this, the higher the slow the harder the course for someone like me boogie + golfer

thanks guys :)

PS yourwelcome dan ;)

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I don't remember much about Glen Mar... Is there a lot of water or other penalty trouble there? I'm still trying to figure out why Canadian would be ranked harder for us "bogey golfers". I shot 90 there on Wednesday last week from the tips, a great score for me, especially from that far back on some of those holes. I find that playing from the tees I'm supposed to play from takes all the water out of play off the tee at Canadian. The greens were in terrible shape, but they're generally level enough that it doesn't matter.

Interesting discussion!

Dan

Hey dan, the wierd thing is if you play the canadian from the TIPS you its like playing glen mar from the whites. It doesn't make sense. Glen mar doesn't have to much water and isn't to narrow. But something (I don't know what) makes it harder.. I just cna' put my finger on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thotho

Hey dan, the wierd thing is if you play the canadian from the TIPS you its like playing glen mar from the whites. It doesn't make sense. Glen mar doesn't have to much water and isn't to narrow. But something (I don't know what) makes it harder.. I just cna' put my finger on it.

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I'm a beginning, high handicap golfer and I always have trouble with the Canadian because I'm not very accurate. There is a lot of water and out-of-bounds there so I take quite a few penalties. I can see how it would be _very_ easy for a low handicap, long hitter though.

I haven't played Glen Mar but if it's more open with less ways to get penalties, I'd probably do better. I certainly find that keeping out of trouble really helps my score.

cheers,

Kris

Most of the course rating comes from the yardage of the course:
course rating = (scratch yardage rating) + (Scratch Obstacle Rating)
scratch yardage rating = (yardage)/220 + 40.9
SYR Glen Mar = 6130/220+40.9 = 68.8
SYR Canadian = 5844/220+40.9 = 67.7
Scratch Obstacle Rating = based on the surroundings for a scratch player (this is a complicated calculation)

This means that:
Glen Mar = SYR + SOR = 68.8 + 0.3 = 69.1
Canadian = SYR + SOR = 67.7 - 0.9 = 66.8

The slope is obtained from a bogey player:
BYR = yardage/160 + 50.7
Bogey Obstacle Rating = based on the sourrounding for a bogey player
Bogey course rating = BYR + BOR

Slope = (bogey course rating - scratch course rating)*5.381

Source:
http://www.myscorecard.com/cgi-bin/h...pinfo.pl?hcap9

Since 1995 the RCGA has adopted the USGA system, so some of these courses may still be posting the old rating and slope calculations (but I don't know for sure).

It might make things clear to think of one of the beautiful signature holes at Marsh Harbor in Myrtle Beach.


For a scratch golfer it's an easy par 5 with the option of going for the large green in 2.
For a bogey golfer it's a difficult drive, requiring a 100 yd carry to the first landing area, then another 100 yd carry to the next landing area, then a 60 yd carry to an island green. Better bring extra balls!

The course rating of 69.3 says it's an easy course for a scratch player. The 121 slope says it's a pretty hard course for a bogey golfer.

Then remember that the rating is subjective, although the aim is for all courses to be rated by the same criteria. What's harder for whom? A 10 handicap player with a great short game will score better on some courses than a 10 handicap with a correspondingly great long game, and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by oldmaninblack

A 10 handicap player with a great short game will score better on some courses than a 10 handicap with a correspondingly great long game, and vice versa.

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oldmaninblack raises a good point here.

Although in theory the handicap system is meant to equalize all courses, there are inherently some differences.

Take me for example. I play most of my rounds at Stonebridge (71.1 / 132). Put me on a course that is more forgiving off the tee, i.e. no fescue, and 1000 yards longer but with a higher rating / slope and I almost always score better.

Why? I shoot better scores at the longer course because I can get away with pretty much any bad tee shot while at SB if I am just a little off it can be a looooooong day since bad tee shot usually means double bogey and I usually hit a few bad ones.

What's the moral of the story? Rating and slope are generally good indicators of difficulty, but take them with a bit of a grain of salt because your particular game may be affected differently.

This is a great place for information on this and other handicapping topics...

http://www.popeofslope.com/

I was hoping I would never have to come back to this topic again but I'm still confused.

I've played the following three courses over the last three days.

Greensmere 5932 yards - slope 114 - Rating 68.6
Stonebridge 6105 pards - Slope 129 - Rating 68.4

So, from what I understand.....

Greensmere is going to be .2 strokes harder for the better half of scratch golfers
and for a weaker player Stone bridge is harder because the slope is higher?

So the fact that Stonebridge is almost 200yards longer and had a slope that is 15 points higher doesn't make it harder for a scratch golfer? That still doesn't make sense to me

The ratings also factor into WHERE the different levels of players hit the ball.

In some cases the scratch golfer being able to hit the ball further means you bring certain trouble into play that the bogey golfer can't reach, thus making it relatively "harder" for the scratch golfer than the bogey golfer.

So I shoudl be looking at the slope of a course instead of the rating right? I mean, 129 vs 114 regardless of the yardage, I would most likely play better on the 114 course? The yardage would have to be taken into account when calculating the slope right? I guess I dn't have to worry about the rating for a while :)

This thread is crazy thotho you think too much. :scratchch I've never really thought so much about the slope/rating/handicap of a course before reading this thread. So did you play better at Greensmere than Stonebridge, I'm guessing you did. :thumbsup

I played both :) I was just curious because its something I look at when picking a course and still don't understand it. So if I'm in the mood for something hard then go by slope... I thinks

I just like to know these things and see if it can help me in picking a course. If I have two choices, I will always pick the harder course :) I think I'll get better faster that way but I'm so pumped... nex ttime I come to ottawa I will be taking my lessons :)





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Quote:

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Originally Posted by thotho

So I shoudl be looking at the slope of a course instead of the rating right? I mean, 129 vs 114 regardless of the yardage, I would most likely play better on the 114 course? The yardage would have to be taken into account when calculating the slope right? I guess I dn't have to worry about the rating for a while :)

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Correct, forget about the course rating and just look at the slope as a ROUGH estimate of how difficult the course may be for you (at least until you started breaking 80). But undoubtably you will find some courses with a high slope number that you find much easier to play than others with a lower number, and vice versa. That is true for just about everybody, because we all have different strengths and weaknesses in our game.

Personally I've always had problems scoring well at Canadian and Meadows, and yet I've usually scored very well at Metcalfe, Pineview and Casselview - courses with much higher slope numbers. Your mileage may differ.