Need a ruling - cart path relief

A question for the rules minded folks...

A photo to help so have a look.

I hit my tee shot up against a tree. I'm a righty so I was totally stymied, there was no way for me to hit that shot.

So I flip my club over to hit it lefty and my partner points out I'm standing on the road and now get a drop.

Interested to see what people say....

I don't know if playing lefty negates a drop but I doubt it, nonetheless it feels a little dishonest to only "qualify" for the drop if you play it backwards. But any "nearest relief" puts me back right handed so it's clearly an advantage in this situation.

What do you think?

This is one of those cases where the Rules can be your friend.

There are some decisions on this type of thing (don't have the time to look them up) but the gist of them is that if the left handed stroke is a reasonable one to make, i.e. you are not doing it just to get relief, then you are allowed to take relief for the left handed stroke. If after taking the relief you now change the shot you are going to make, then you are allowed to do that.

From the picture the nearest point of relief is going to probably be in the middle of the tree and you'll get a club length no closer to the hole which will be deeper in the woods. Remember that you must take full relief for the left handed stroke but after the drop you can play right handed if you wish. This drop might not end up helping you much.

Good point Gerry. I didn't look at the picture that closely.

Remember kids, it's NEAREST point of relief, not NICEST.

The npr for a left handed stroke (or a RH stroke playing back down the course) may well be in or close to the trunk of the tree.
1 cl drop could take the ball back to the edge of the path rather than into the trees.
The player may well be able to address the ball RHanded and progress the ball towards the green

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AAA

The npr for a left handed stroke (or a RH stroke playing back down the course) may well be in or close to the trunk of the tree.
1 cl drop could take the ball back to the edge of the path rather than into the trees.
The player may well be able to address the ball RHanded and progress the ball towards the green

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It might get him back but he would have to make sure that he isn't standing on the path for the left handed stroke before switching to right handed as the full relief has to be for the left hand stroke not the right hand.
From looking at the photo I don't think the player would actually be standing on the path for the type of stroke that would be played without using an unusual stance. :-)

It's a path of some sort, but it doesn't look like it's paved or covered with bulldozer stuff. So IMHO you can't take relief from this path.

If you agree that the road is an immovable obstruction (I think most would) then relief is entitled.

I looked it up and there is an exception to this rule - "A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur
only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play."

So I guess my question is this - does playing a RH club LH fall under this latter part of a clearly unreasonable stroke?

I would think it reasonable since that is really the only shot I could hit here.

If you agree that NPR is the tree, getting one club length in any direction lets me get back RH and not totally free of the tree but a near full swing, which I find a huge advantage over trying to hit it lefty and hence the conflict for a "free" drop.

I would think if you had to lay on your belly and hit it like a snooker shot, that would be unreasonable....

Playing a RH club LH is definitely reasonable.

So......what did you end up doing? I'm assuming you're not still out there waiting for the OG Brotherhood to rule one way or the other... :-)

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Originally Posted by gbower

as the full relief has to be for the left hand stroke not the right hand.

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Are you sure that if when taking a RH stance and has no interference, that he is still considered to have interference?
I can't find any confirmation of that.

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Originally Posted by AAA

Are you sure that if when taking a RH stance and has no interference, that he is still considered to have interference?
I can't find any confirmation of that.

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Remember he is taking relief for a left handed stroke and the ball must not end up so he is still standing on the path for that stroke and the ball was dropped meeting the conditions for that stroke then he can use whatever stroke he wishes. Why would he determine his nearest point of relief if was going to just drop near the path as that just doesn't make sense. Check Rule 20-2c(v)

Yes. I have always read it that way (ie relief for stance, swing, ball) but for some reason when I read 20-2c(v) yesterday I was wondering about the use of the word 'condition'.
Elsewhere there has been a debate (in an entirely different context) about what a 'condition' is. It involved the 'condition' being the 'thing' causing the interference excluding what aspect of interference was being caused.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AAA

Yes. I have always read it that way (ie relief for stance, swing, ball) but for some reason when I read 20-2c(v) yesterday I was wondering about the use of the word 'condition'.
Elsewhere there has been a debate (in an entirely different context) about what a 'condition' is. It involved the 'condition' being the 'thing' causing the interference excluding what aspect of interference was being caused.

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gbower is correct. The player must take complete relief for the left-handed stroke which was the stroke that entitled him to relief. He needs to find the npr for that left-handed stroke, which is probably towards the tree, and then drop within one club length of that npr, but, in this situation, the drop cannot be nearer the path than the nearest point of relief as that would not be providing complete relief for the left-handed stroke. Only after dropping at a spot which has provided complete relief for the left-handed stroke may the player consider playing right-handed.

@gbower, @adanac.

I agree that the NPR is farther in the bush or a little farther back up the hole for a left handed shot to get complete relief of the path.

But if you moved the ball closer to the path, I could squeeze in and hit it RH (with the same difficulty I would have for any of the other drop farther in the bush). But then I'm not taking relief from the lefty shot which is unusual but not crazy in this spot I think.

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Originally Posted by moneymaker

@gbower, @adanac.

I agree that the NPR is farther in the bush or a little farther back up the hole for a left handed shot to get complete relief of the path.

But if you moved the ball closer to the path, I could squeeze in and hit it RH (with the same difficulty I would have for any of the other drop farther in the bush). But then I'm not taking relief from the lefty shot which is unusual but not crazy in this spot I think.

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When taking relief from an immovable obstruction, you must take complete relief (lie of ball, area of intended stance and swing) for the intended stroke. In this case, the intended stroke was left-handed, therefore you cannot be standing on the cart path after relief is taken for the left-handed stroke. If the stance for the left-handed stroke was still on the cart path after taking relief and you played the ball, you would incur a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place whether you played the ball right-handed or left-handed. The ball cannot be dropped nearer the cart path than the nearest point of relief, which, according to the photograph, is further away from the cart path, towards the tree.

Confirmed by Dec 20-2c/0.7 which I had forgotten and missed.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-...-20,d20-2c-0.7

Interesting - thanks for all the advice everyone.

FYI I took a shot for unplayable and two clubs from the tree. Got it up and in which would have been best case if I dropped in the bush and punched out.