2 rules questions from playing yesterday...

I was teeing off at GLEN MAR yesterday and I used a 3 iron from the white tees. It was one of those holes were all the tee boxes were about 5-10 yards apart (pros, mens, womens) and My ball was a line driver, a bit to the left, and it hit the tee box marker infront of us (the left one). Had it not been there it would have ended up in the fairway but to the left.. still could have had a decent shot from there.

Next question, there was a hole were my friend landed on the left side of the fairway but there was a big sold piece of mud that was the size of a tree trunk right where he would have to stand to take the shot. There was a tree infront of him so if he pushed it to the right a little it takes the tree out of play (not completely but being to the right of and behind a tree is better than being completely behind a tree) but moving it foward puts him close to the hole and moving him back doesn't really do anyhting but him him a place to stand. We are just casual players bbut try to play fast and follow as many of the rules as we can. What should we have done under the rules and what should we have done just playing a casual round with people backed up on the course (3 groups were on our tails waiting at the tee box)

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Originally Posted by thotho

I was teeing off at GLEN MAR yesterday and I used a 3 iron from the white tees. It was one of those holes were all the tee boxes were about 5-10 yards apart (pros, mens, womens) and My ball was a line driver, a bit to the left, and it hit the tee box marker infront of us (the left one). Had it not been there it would have ended up in the fairway but to the left.. still could have had a decent shot from there.

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I can't detect a question here, but you probably want to know the status of the tee-markers in front of you.

Before a player makes his first stroke with any ball on the teeing ground of the hole being played, the tee-markers are deemed to be fixed. In other words, if you move them, its a penalty. After you have make a stroke from the teeing ground, the tee-markers are moveable obstructions.

In your case, you hit an obstruction on the course like anyother obstruction on the course (garbage can, bench, clubhouse). You play the ball as it lies.

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Originally Posted by thotho

Next question, there was a hole were my friend landed on the left side of the fairway but there was a big sold piece of mud that was the size of a tree trunk right where he would have to stand to take the shot. There was a tree infront of him so if he pushed it to the right a little it takes the tree out of play (not completely but being to the right of and behind a tree is better than being completely behind a tree) but moving it foward puts him close to the hole and moving him back doesn't really do anyhting but him him a place to stand. We are just casual players bbut try to play fast and follow as many of the rules as we can. What should we have done under the rules and what should we have done just playing a casual round with people backed up on the course (3 groups were on our tails waiting at the tee box)

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You should have played the ball as it lies or declared it unplayable.

It makes no difference how many people are behind you. You cant do anything about that. However, it does make a difference if there is nobody in FRONT of you. That means you are holding up play.

Thanks gary, looks like we both made a mistake then. So when does someone get free relief? Or is that not possible?

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Originally Posted by thotho

Thanks gary, looks like we both made a mistake then. So when does someone get free relief? Or is that not possible?

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Generally, you get free relief when something "other than nature" interfers with your play (cart path, sprinkler head, etc.).

ok, I get it. So if you are playing a course with standing water, what is the rule with that? no relief if you land in the little puddle?

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Originally Posted by thotho

ok, I get it. So if you are playing a course with standing water, what is the rule with that? no relief if you land in the little puddle?

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That would be casual water. You are entitled to relief - this was discussed in the last couple of days in another thread in this forum, if my memory's correct.

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Originally Posted by Gary Hill

Generally, you get free relief when something "other than nature" interfers with your play (cart path, sprinkler head, etc.).

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If the mud was not a normal part of the course, but from ground under repair, or from were people have walked or ridden carts after a rain it would be considered "other than nature" just like casual water, correct?

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Originally Posted by HiG4s

If the mud was not a normal part of the course, but from ground under repair, or from were people have walked or ridden carts after a rain it would be considered "other than nature" just like casual water, correct?

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From what I gather, the ball did not land in it, it was a question of stance. Does "GUR" rules for relief extend to the player's stance as well?

Along those lines, are there limitations to cart-path relief? (ie - does the stance matter, or only the ball, or is cart-path relief only a local rule?)

Thanks.
Dan

Yup, it was just his stance. Had that mud not been there he woudl have had a hard shot, he would have had to go over a tree and wouldn't have been able to go for the green or even the fairway up ahead and most likely would have had to punch out. By taking the relief he moved out from directly behind the tree and was able to go alot farther up the green than had he not moved the ball. So my question is, if he is allowed relief how can it be that he is able to benifit from it like that? He asked me if he could move it and i said yeah because it looked like something that wasn't caused by nature and I knew it would take the tree out of play but it still didn't seem fair to make him shoot it from where he was. But its not fair to benift from hitting a poor shot and getting luck that there is some daamged ground their either.

thotho, as a general suggestion, you should pick up a rules book and give it a read.

To your specific question, sometimes the rules work to your advantage and sometimes they don't. Relief is a good example.

The rules are pretty specific about where you need to take relief. Sometimes that moves you to a position where you are no longer behind a tree. Sometimes it moves you to a position where you are behind a tree.

It should be noted that you aren't forced to take relief in all situations. If it is better for you to hit the ball as it lies than to take relief, then hit it as it lies.

Stance matters. You don't have to stand in casual water, ground under repair or on a cart path. (abnormal ground conditions). You do not get relief if you have to stand in a hazard to make a shot.

Doesn't sound as if this was GUR, but in tournaments areas are often marked as ground under repair because of mud or dead grass.

Gary, could you comment on "where people have walked or ridden carts after a rain"? I don't think you get relief from mud, only from "visible" water. It's a PGA Tour thing to mark areas where people have been walking as GUR

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Originally Posted by Gary Hill

Before a player makes his first stroke with any ball on the teeing ground of the hole being played, the tee-markers are deemed to be fixed. In other words, if you move them, its a penalty. After you have make a stroke from the teeing ground, the tee-markers are moveable obstructions.

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Can you clarify this for me?

If I'm playing from the back tees during my stipulated round, then my "teeing ground" consists of a "box" formed by the distance between the outer-most dimension of these markers (front & outside edges), and 2 club-lengths deep. There will be times when I can view other sets of tee markers in front of my teeing ground (reds, whites, etc.).

Are those other markers deemed as fixed as well, or can they be moved by me prior to playing my stroke?

yeah that is what he is talking about, because that is what happened to me. I hit one of the ones infront of me (not the ones for my box). I think I hit the ladies tee box marker

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Originally Posted by broken27

From what I gather, the ball did not land in it, it was a question of stance. Does "GUR" rules for relief extend to the player's stance as well?

Along those lines, are there limitations to cart-path relief? (ie - does the stance matter, or only the ball, or is cart-path relief only a local rule?)

Thanks.
Dan

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Interference (immovable obstructions, casual water, and ground under repair) occurs when the players ball is in or touches the condition OR when the condition interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing.

But be careful. If you take relief, you have to take full relief (ie. you can't drop your ball off the cart and then stand on the cart path to play your next shot.)

RE: Ground under repair

There are only two things that are automagically ground under repair.
1. Material piled for removal. (e.g. A tree that has been cut down and stacked like cord wood.
2. A hole made by a Greenkeeper.

Everything else must be:
1. MARKED as ground under repair OR
2. DECLARED to be ground under repair by the Committee.

However, there is nothing preventing you from asking whether a certain spot should be declared ground under repair if it is not already marked as such.

Players CANNOT decide whether or not a spot is ground under repair.

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Originally Posted by LobWedge

Can you clarify this for me?

If I'm playing from the back tees during my stipulated round, then my "teeing ground" consists of a "box" formed by the distance between the outer-most dimension of these markers (front & outside edges), and 2 club-lengths deep. There will be times when I can view other sets of tee markers in front of my teeing ground (reds, whites, etc.).

Are those other markers deemed as fixed as well, or can they be moved by me prior to playing my stroke?

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ALL the tee-markers of the hole being played are deemed to be fixed. NONE can be moved prior to your first stroke from the teeing ground.

Well this wasn't really ground under repair. It just looked like soemthing that shouldn't have been there and had someone from the course seen it they would have removed it so it didn't effect anyones shot.

WHat is to stop someone from taking a wider stance, or standing farther back from the ball just to say that it is effecting their stance so they can get relief?

PS I'm reading all the rules as we speak :)

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Originally Posted by thotho

Well this wasn't really ground under repair. It just looked like soemthing that shouldn't have been there and had someone from the course seen it they would have removed it so it didn't effect anyones shot.

WHat is to stop someone from taking a wider stance, or standing farther back from the ball just to say that it is effecting their stance so they can get relief?

PS I'm reading all the rules as we speak :)

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Rule 25-2 Abnormal Ground Conditions
Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition or (b) interference by an abnormal ground condition would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

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Originally Posted by Gary Hill

Interference (immovable obstructions, casual water, and ground under repair) occurs when the players ball is in or touches the condition OR when the condition interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing.

RE: Ground under repair

There are only two things that are automagically ground under repair.
1. Material piled for removal. (e.g. A tree that has been cut down and stacked like cord wood.
2. A hole made by a Greenkeeper.

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What about situations when GUR interferes with the intended shot? In a recent round, a fellow's ball landed in front of a big pile of sand (material piled for removal). The ball and stance was still ok, but the pile made it impossible for him to hit the intended 3wood shot (second shot on a long par5), he would've had to take a wedge to go over it. He took releif from it, citing a PGA tournament decision involving Sergio Garcia as a precedent. What that correct?

Cheers,
Krolik.

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Originally Posted by Krolik

What about situations when GUR interferes with the intended shot? In a recent round, a fellow's ball landed in front of a big pile of sand (material piled for removal). The ball and stance was still ok, but the pile made it impossible for him to hit the intended 3wood shot (second shot on a long par5), he would've had to take a wedge to go over it. He took releif from it, citing a PGA tournament decision involving Sergio Garcia as a precedent. What that correct?

Cheers,
Krolik.

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Correct.

Interference (immovable obstructions, casual water, and ground under repair) occurs when the players ball is in or touches the condition OR when the condition interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing.

Kroliks description sounds more like it interfered with the intended line of ball flight. If the pile did not interfere with the actual club swinging, just the desired ball flight then no relief, correct?

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Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank

Kroliks description sounds more like it interefered with the intended line of ball flight. If the pile did not interefere with the actual club swinging, just the desired ball flight then no relief, correct?

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Correct.

Question: "In a recent round, a fellow's ball landed in front of a big pile of sand (material piled for removal)."

If the ball is in front of the pile, I assumed it would interfer with his backswing.

If the ball was behind the pile, then I would assume there would be interference with the line of flight and, as you correctly pointed out, there would be no free relief.

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he would've had to take a wedge to go over it.

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I think that was the question. :thumbsup

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Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank

I think that was the question. :thumbsup

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OK. Then I change my answer. NO FREE RELIEF. :oops

Thanks Gary. His swing was indeed clear, just his intended ball flight was the problem.

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Originally Posted by Krolik

Thanks Gary. His swing was indeed clear, just his intended ball flight was the problem.

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So I guess in Sergio's case, his follow through probably would hit the obstruction... ???

Interesting situation today at Wacovia. Trahan was granted a free drop because the stands were in the way of his pitching line at the 18th hole. I beleive he also had a big tree in his backswing, and apparently that didn't influence the decision. How's that different from a pile of sand at the edge of the fairway in my original question? Gary?

To take a guess, the stands are immovable obstructions, and even if there's a big tree in his backswing, it wouldn't prevent him from making an attempt at a shot. The stands are, however in his way, and thus I'd say he gets to benefit from a technicality. (Doesn't matter what's in the backswing if 24-2 can be applied in forward swing).

But that's just a guess...
Dan

Dan, read my initial post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Krolik

Interesting situation today at Wacovia. Trahan was granted a free drop because the stands were in the way of his pitching line at the 18th hole. I beleive he also had a big tree in his backswing, and apparently that didn't influence the decision. How's that different from a pile of sand at the edge of the fairway in my original question? Gary?

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Under what Rule was he given a free drop?

Line of sight I believe. Definitely an example of using the rules to your advantage. His ball was sitting down in longer grass and he got to drop basically in fairway height grass. I do not believe that the tree was in the way of his backswing though since he never appeared to try to make any backswings where the tree was his focus.

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How's that different from a pile of sand at the edge of the fairway in my original question

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Grandstands are a termporary immovable obstruction. Different from GUR, and does allow for line of sight relief.

Ther is no rule giving relief for line of sight.

Dan
I can't see any mention of line of siight relief in the Rules of Golf Specimen Local Rule Appendix I Part B 6 Temporary Obstructions

II. Interference
Interference by a temporary immovable obstruction occurs when (a) the ball lies in front of and so close to the obstruction that the obstruction interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing, or (b) the ball lies in, on, under or behind the obstruction so that any part of the obstruction intervenes directly between the player’s ball and the hole; interference also exists if the ball lies within one club-length of a spot equidistant from the hole where such intervention would exist.


Of course this is ONLY for temporary obstructions; Examples of temporary immovable obstructions include, but are not limited to, tents, scoreboards, grandstands, television towers and lavatories

Thanks, my reading is as good as my putting !

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Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank

II. Interference
Interference by a temporary immovable obstruction occurs when (a) the ball lies in front of and so close to the obstruction that the obstruction interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing, or (b) the ball lies in, on, under or behind the obstruction so that any part of the obstruction intervenes directly between the player’s ball and the hole; interference also exists if the ball lies within one club-length of a spot equidistant from the hole where such intervention would exist.


Of course this is ONLY for temporary obstructions; Examples of temporary immovable obstructions include, but are not limited to, tents, scoreboards, grandstands, television towers and lavatories

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But a pile of dirt from ground under repair is not a temporary obstruction?

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Originally Posted by HiG4s

But a pile of dirt from ground under repair is not a temporary obstruction?

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FORGET ABOUT TEMPORARY OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!

You have NEVER played on a course that has one!!
You will NEVER play on a course that has one!!

DO remember this: YOU GET NO LINE OF SIGHT RELIEF UNDER THE RULES OF GOLF!!

A pile of dirt made by a Greenkeeper is Ground Under Repair.

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Originally Posted by Gary Hill

FORGET ABOUT TEMPORARY OBSTRUCTIONS!!!!!

You have NEVER played on a course that has one!!
You will NEVER play on a course that has one!!

DO remember this: YOU GET NO LINE OF SIGHT RELIEF UNDER THE RULES OF GOLF!!

A pile of dirt made by a Greenkeeper is Ground Under Repair.

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Yes I HAVE!!!