A couple of pics for a forum member who is interested in seeing what ON PLANE means.
Source:
"The Secret to the Golf Swing" by John Dunnigan.
www.golfbetterproductions.com
The Hogan pic did not attach.:grumpy:
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A couple of pics for a forum member who is interested in seeing what ON PLANE means.
Source:
"The Secret to the Golf Swing" by John Dunnigan.
www.golfbetterproductions.com
The Hogan pic did not attach.:grumpy:
The hands should touch the shaft axes plane where on the downswing?
I would love to see Tiger or any other tour pro’s single plane downswing motion in every position. I just can’t find one.
Mike
Jim Hardy named his idea the "Single Plane" motion, however, it is anything but single plane. His reference point is left arm coinciding with the the turned shoulder plane at the top. The other important plane is the shaft axis plane and at the top the right elbow is on this line and stays there on the way down or is just below it. Not all pros have a "single plane" motion. Sabatinni, Furyk and Couples are as far from this as any and yet they win. They have a wee bit more talent that the average bear. The best SP swing out there right now is probably Chad Campbell.Quote:
Originally Posted by mberube
If the hands are on the turned shoulder plane at the top, they will gradually move down to the shaft axis plane by the time they are at or just below hip height and the reference point is when the shaft coincides with the right forearm. This is called a plane shift and most, if not all, good players make one. It is obvious in the shots of Dunnigan above and you can see that Tiger is shifting his hands from the TSP back down towards the SAP. His "new" swing brings the shaft almost coinciding with the right forearm, SAP(Pg 98, "Tiger's New Swing," Hank Haney, second pic). If he was to be on perfect plane, he would not block the ball, but where does he miss most of his drives, if he does? Right or left?
The other truth is that one can create any plane reference point they want and describe the movements in terms of that plane. Draw a line from the ball to the golfer's nose and then describe the movement of the hands or whatever relative to that line. The two that are mentioned are the ones that are referred to the most.
Check the positions of Hogan, Moe Norman, & George Knudson, three of the greatest ball strikers, ever, relative to the two planes I mentioned. If they vary from the above, I will eat my divot. Tiger is NOT a great ball striker. His drives miss far too many fairways for him to be classified that way. Sure, he was #1 in GIR's this weekend, but how long was the Doral rough?" The only reason he won was because he was 58/58 in putts from 6' and in. He is probably the greatest putter ever.
Regardless of any of the above, golfers can still play good golf, even if they return the club back down along the turned shoulder plane. Just learn how to block the shot with your hands and/or your body. But, is it not easier to learn to do something correctly in the first place, than to learn to do something else correctly to compensate for something you have learned to do that is not ideal? If one has had some success with the latter, then doubting the former is understandable. I still recommend Mark Evershed's "Knowledge Video," and anything TGM ("The Golfing Machine.") With the proper knowledge and understanding, it is easier to decide where to go to get on the path to improvement. There is nothing wrong in perfecting ones faults; it just makes it tougher to get better.
Don’t get me wrong Lyle, I do believe its the right way to swing. I’m just searching for a model swinger. I like to analyse the golf swing and then make myself some kind of training tool to force my swing on the desired swing path.
I was an OTT swinger 5 years ago and fixed it by creating a home made “inside approach” before it even existed. On TV that is.
When I figure out exactly what I want to do I will post pictures. The only way that I can make this tool is to find the ideal swing motion sequence.
If you have rear view pics of every downswing frames from a pro, I would love to see them.
Mike
Here are some pics of the OPS poster child.
He is very steep on his back swing and then reroutes it. I’m missing a frame from the top to waist high.
Do you or anybody have a video session of him or any other pro that has a single plane?
I know, I know I’m asking a lot but some of you golf freaks must have it.
Mike
Attached is the slightly revised contribution of Chad's swing, with the plane lines(TSP-Turned Shoulder Plane and SAP-Shaft Axis Plane) added.Quote:
Originally Posted by mberube
At the top, pic 4, his hands are on the TSP and the left arm coincides with the shoulder turn. Classic "ONE PLANE." Also, in pic 4 I have included the SAP line I made in pic one to show that his right elbow is ON or just below this line, which is even better.
The most important shot is pic 5. His hands move back and down so that they are ON the SAP, AND the club shaft coincides with this, AND covers the right forearm. My plane line covers this but is visible if you check "Started's" original attachment.
The only way that he can get to this position is to have a plane shift, or as you say, "reroutes it." This rerouting is NOT, however, a LOOP. It is just Chad pushing his hands back towards the camera FIRST, instead of moving them towards the ball. While the difference between the TSP and the SAP in Chad's swing is relatively small, compared to some, it still shows what Evershed, TGM, Dunnigan, & O'Grady teach. The arms/hands move to an on, shaft axis plane, position.
Here is something to compare to Tiger 2002 mid-iron (with BC's lines). BC might want to comment on it.
While Tiger was close to "single plane" at the top, he definitely did NOT return his hands down to the shaft axis plane on the way down. That was 2002, however, as you indicated and seemingly, a lot has changed since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Started2k3
In "Tiger's New Swing," it is obvious that he has flattened the downswing plane, but whether he gets to the shaft axis plane, I don't know. I would love to see a sequence similar to the above of his current action.
This may or may not be relevant, but Tiger hits his shots with a fade so his setup is more open, making the downswing plane a little more "upright", ie., more likely to be above the shaft axis plane. Secondly, most of Tiger's misses go right indicating that he blocks most of his shots. A lower body that is too far around or ahead of the upper, pulls the arms more outwardly, which again would make his downswing steeper. Having said this, the idea of returning closer to the shaft axis plane on the downswing, will make any golfer lacking Tour calibre talent to compensate, a better ball striker.
Because Tiger is the best "player" in the world, does NOT make him the best ball striker, and his swing is NOT one that I would use if I was looking for one to have golfers copy. The best ball strikers could hit fairways. Tiger's prowess is putting. He is probably the best ever and this is why he wins. His length does not hurt either even though he is in the rough a bit less than half the time.
Where do you get these sequences? They are great.
Here are some swing sequence but they are old.
http://asafgolf.free.fr/swings/swings.htm
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by BC MIST
This guys site used to be freely available (no password required). I just emailed the guy and he sent me the password (no strings ... so far).
There are quite a few tour swings (pics and vids).
The pictures can't be saved directly, but with a little bit of clever computering you can capture the picture (PM me if you want to know what I do).
Password: bluegoat :shhh:
Great! The guy obviously wanted to restrict access (to a certain degree).Quote:
Originally Posted by mberube
Now if he shuts his site down, I will be pissed. :irked:
BTW - my password to my account on this site is: ######## :shhh:
What is yours?
Trust me you can tell me. I won't tell any one. :-)
Mine is unique: bluegoat:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Started2k3
Please keep this to yourself.
I extracted a few of pics (Howell III, Sergio, VJ, Me and me) and drew a couple of lines. All three players have their hands touching the SAP at hip high as illustrated with the circle.
Compared to my swing, I need to bring back my hands to the SAP. That will probably align my saft to the SAP at impact. Hmmmm!! Lots of work to do all though I’m not in a bas position. Comments?
Got to make a tool to force me in that position.
Mike
Wow! this is all great stuff guys. Looks like you have a super place to practice mberube. There is nowhere in my house I can swing without hitting something.
A couple of things stick out in the pro shots that may not be apparent when we watch these guys swing on TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by mberube
The first is how "FLAT" or how "LAID OFF" or how much BEHIND their bums, the shaft is as the downswing starts. Some, "old fashioned" instructors would see this as a fault, stating that the club head is coming into the ball "too much from the inside." I have played a long time and I have NEVER seen anyone swing too much from the inside. 98% of golfers swing too much from ABOVE plane and/or from the outside. The truth is that this flattening motion should be perceived as essential to achieving consistency.
The second is the position of VJ's right hand in pic 7. Except for his finger tips, his right hand is completely off the club. How can a guy become #1 in the world doing that? The morons at Golf Digest actually wrote an article about this position calling it, I believe, "the new release." Try it and you while you may break a few windows, you won't break 150.
Mike, I work on the motion of moving my hands BACK toward the camera each time I practice, by doing two things: (1) I use John Dunnigan's "Flattening drill," which he describes here - http://www.golfbetterproductions.com....asp?drillID=3. (2) I lay a 2' to 3' piece of masking tape on the mat coming into the ball at about a 30* angle. As I swing down I can "SEE/FEEL" my hands and arms staying on my side of the this tape, AND, I can see the clubhead coming into the ball and beyond at this same angle. The ironic thing is that while I see the underneath drop of the arms/hands and the inside path of the club head, I also "FEEL" my hands arms coming very sharply low and left through impact. Watching the good players in slow mo, this is exactly what they do. The hands are going left while the club head is going right. This may sound confusing, but it works. The tape on the mat works well for me, but if you come up with a device to help get your hands back down to the shaft plane, would you let us have a peek?
For we mortals, I believe this plane shift is "The Secret to the Golf Swing," and yet, how many golfers understand this?
The set-up you see is in my garage. I hit golf balls all year long in there. If you look closely, I am hitting off a P3Pro golf simulator. www.p3pro.com You can see the black pad under my golf ball. This thing is connected to a laptop. You can connect your laptop to a projector and have the same type of set-up as Golf-o-max but better. This unit reads face angles, swing speed, ball speed, swing path, angle of attack…. It my best friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by little brit
Mike
I practiced a specific drill today. I stopped at the top of my backswing then practiced dropping my hands straight down to the SAP while keeping the shaft very “flat” so that the shaft points outside the target line and making sure that I feel the weight of the shaft on my right index finger. I do this drill three times before hitting the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by BC MIST
Let me tell you that it feels great. I’m hitting it a bit thin but that is normal for now. Remarkably this swing change added 4 mph to my swing speed on an 8 iron. I don’t know what it looks like on video but I will tell you in two week.
As for the tape drill that you use, It doesn’t work for me. I get stuck. I feel like my arms separate from my body at and post impact. It will probably work better when my swing comes down closer or on the SAP.
When I figure out what device I need to fabricate, I will be happy to share it with a video session print screen at the same time.
Mike
Is it possible that this separation is an effect of the blocking position your body was in when your hands/arms were coming down on the turned shoulder plane? It is very common.Quote:
Originally Posted by mberube
One of the best "solutions" of this blocking move is to have the upper left arm stay in contact with the left upper chest, connection, through the entire downswing. It is one of the 4 important pressure points that TGM describes. You use of the right index finger as a pressure point is one of the others.
It would have been interesting to see a shot of your swing, from directly behind you, a little after impact, just to see if and how much separation you actually may have had.
What is also good about what you are doing is that you are finding your own way to improvement vesus relying on some instructor, or tips, or whatever. Good golf teachers teach the golfer to teach themselves. How many do that?
Quote:
One of the best "solutions" of this blocking move is to have the upper left arm stay in contact with the left upper chest, connection, through the entire downswing. It is one of the 4 important pressure points that TGM describes. You use of the right index finger as a pressure point is one of the others.
What are the other 2 pressure points?
Is thhis what you want or a video session with the camera in my back?
Mike
Part 2
mberube,
Those stills are pretty cool. I was looking at the ball's impact on the sheet - definately in to out club head path.
What I would do if I could ever convince my wife to let me have your setup:
Mark the target line with masking tape on the sheet (maybe with a couple of parallel lines to either side 4-5 inches). This would give me a clear indication of how much the swing was in-out.
Ya my swing path is definitely in-to-out and I know where to hit the ball on the screen but I keep my head down as long as possible and that makes it hard to see exactly where the ball hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Started2k3
My golf simulator tells me exactly what I did wrong: swing path, ball flight. The swing you see here is in-to-out 6 degrees, 1 degree closed clubface at impact resulting in a right to left ball flight with the ball landing 7 yards left of target.
All my golf buddies envy my setup. It’s very cool. I just got the simulator a month ago. It’s a must buy when you hit in a net. At least I now know where the ball is going and not practicing a hook every day and not knowing it. The downside is that I can’t swing a driver, yet, 8I is the safest club and that I lose all my heat cause the garage is not well insulated. It makes it hard/impossible to swing during cold winter evenings. I’ll fix it up for next winter.
Mike
pp1: last 3 fingers left handQuote:
Originally Posted by mberube
pp2: right palm on the aft side of shaft
pp3: right index pressure on side of shaft
pp4: wherever left arm touches chest.
i dont have the book with me right now, but im pretty sure tahts it.
When you say “pp4: wherever left arm touches chest.” is it the upper bicep/triceps to the chest or must the elbow stay in contact with the body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
I do the “towel under arm” drill but I never now exactly where to put the towel. Is it in the middle of the bicep under the pectoral or directly under the armpit?
Mike
this is not a towel drill thing. Actually i think it is counter-productive and unpowerfull....i know i know, if VJ does it then...BS. hes just that damn good to get away with it, but remember he did bust a rib cuz of it.
PP4 is once the left arm has been thrown across chest at top of swing via a pivot motion or otherwise, the left arm touches the left titty. From here, via the pivot, the left arm will get blasted off the chest as a power source wich is exactly the opposite of the towel drill. imagine left arm as a rope, you turn back to get rope across chest and you try and blast it off through impact without using your left arm, imagine you have slepped on your left arm and it feels numb and from there you try to fling the numb left arm across chest and blast it off your chest at followthrough...a form of lag i guess. hope this helps.
Wouldn’t that create separation and make someone swing even more in2out? :scratchchQuote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that he was using a golf ball, not a towel, when he busted his rib.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
yes that is right, i was just talking about the drill trying to keep something tight throughout the stroke. As for the more in 2 out, how so? pp4 is not directionnal in my opinion, the right shoulder thrust would be more of a directional factor, the left arm i dont think does much in this case.
I think your left arm has everything to do with swing path. If your left arm disconnects from your body you will probably cross the target line resulting in an in2out swing creating a push or a right to left hook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
At least it’s my understanding of the swing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
Aha! A discussion with some meat in it. May I offer my take on the recent comments?Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
If the left upper arm separates from the chest through impact (pp4), the arms will go more down the line, which is NOT desireable, the club will be off plane to the right so a pushed type shot will result, depending on face position and power will be LOST.
IMO, when the hands "stop" going forward, inertia will very quickly cause the right arm power package to straighten, resulting in maximum velocity. If the left are separates, the hands do not "stop" or they slow down less, and the right arm package will not straighten as fast. Compare it to striking a 5' stick against a tree 1' from the hands. When the stick by your hands stops dead, the stick at the 5' end keeps going and the stick will snap. But if you hit the stick with the same force against something soft and more absorbant, the stick may not break.
Having the left upper arm on the chest aids in the on plane release of the right arm and if allowed to wing away, forces the club to swing the OUT of the inside/out swing path, which is NOT desireable. What we want is an inside/inside path, where the head does NOT cross the line. To keep ON PLANE, the hands must come more around the body, not down the line.
Look at this shot of Hogan. The delayed release is obvious, the right hand is still bent, the arms are approaching the true release point which occurs well after the ball has gone, but most importantly, look at his left upper arm. It is still tight to the chest. I have another shot of Hogan in a similar position, but from the down the line view, where his hands have come around the body and do NOT go down the line which would happen with separation. The left arm is kept on the chest until the hands are about hip high in the through swing, where separation occurs.
Having trouble uploading pic. Will add this later, if possible.
i agree and have seen those pics before...the blastoff of chest should be well into the followthrough and not impact indeed...can you say chinese drum?
I’m back after a couple of weeks of thinking and trying.
First thing I didn’t like on my original video was that my hands and shaft were a lot higher and steeper at impact compared to my setup. The goal is to come back at the same spot at impac as I was at address just like the Pro pics on page one of this thread.
I took a piece of 2x10, a 4x4 and 3/8 plastic plumbing tubes. As you will see in the attached pics, the tubing comes close to my hands at address. The tubes are in a T shape so there is a piece that is parallel to the target line.
This tool gives me no other chose but to come back where I started at impact. I crouch a lot more but I will work on that. It was and still is difficult to hit the ball on the sweet-spot but I gather that It’s cause of the swing change.
This tool could also help the over the top swinger. It would be impossible to swing OTT and make contact on the ball with this tool.
Comments are welcome.
Mike
I am reposting the Chad Cambell pics with lines. It appears that when BC put in the lines the first time he started off based on the shaft, then switched to the ball. This means that the lines have moved signficantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by mberube
I have redrawn the lines but have used static background points to ensure that the lines dont move.
Note that Chad does NOT get back to the exact shaft line at impact. However, he is parallel to the shaft line at impact.
your intentions are great. another way of practicing correctly as well is with a club liying on top of a bucket of ball extended out over your target line so you swing 'under' that club as well. i like your prop btw...but many pros and weekend warriors dont go back too oriignal shaft plane perfectly, mostly because of the uncocking of wrist and or coming in too high with right forearm not inline with shaft at impact what the better players strive for. The pros do it better than us, what can i say!
The “Club lying on a bucket” drill is for the OOT swinger. That’s not what I am trying to fix. My prop is to get my hands back on plane, not the club head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerdraw
I understand that some pros and most amateurs don’t come back on line but most great ball strikers do. Never the less my swing tool has made an immense change for the better at the impact position.
Mike
i really like your prop for the hands, can you make me one to glide on too the top and back down? now THAT would be amazing.
do you have a reference point for your hands at setup? i mean reference too the ground? feet? my thinking is say hands over left toe, you start them there visually and try and get them back there visually, instead of just missing the prop,
how do you go about it?
I admire your persistence. When you make up your mind to do something to better your swing, it seems nothing will stand in your way. Your prop is obviously working as you are getting into a better position coming down. I caught a glimpse of one similar to yours on the Golf Channel last week. Too bad you you didn't get a patent.