Ball in Water Hazard

My ball lands in a water hazard and I decide that I want to play it out. I do not ground the club, however, the club touches some long grass that is growing in the hazard, as I take my backswing.

As I start down I decide that I want to stop my swing and do so before contacting the ball, however, the clubhead touches the top of the blades of grass that I contacted as I took my backswing.

While I believe that I am not penalized for contacting the grass on the way back, am I penalized for touching it on my abbreviated downswing?

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

My ball lands in a water hazard and I decide that I want to play it out. I do not ground the club, however, the club touches some long grass that is growing in the hazard, as I take my backswing.

As I start down I decide that I want to stop my swing and do so before contacting the ball, however, the clubhead touches the top of the blades of grass that I contacted as I took my backswing.

While I believe that I am not penalized for contacting the grass on the way back, am I penalized for touching it on my abbreviated downswing?

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I found this today BC MIST:

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

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Originally Posted by broken27

I found this today BC MIST:

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.
2. After making the stroke, the player or his caddie may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided that, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, nothing is done that improves the lie of the ball or assists the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

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In my search for an answer to the question I came across what you included above and it answered my question about NOT being penalized for touching the grass on the way back.

However, the question is, if I check my downswing, thereby, NOT having any intent to hit the ball, am I penalized for touching the same grass? I believe that I would be penalized, but I am not sure.

Thanks for your help.

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

In my search for an answer to the question I came across what you included above and it answered my question about NOT being penalized for touching the grass on the way back.

However, the question is, if I check my downswing, thereby, NOT having any intent to hit the ball, am I penalized for touching the same grass? I believe that I would be penalized, but I am not sure.

Thanks for your help.

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I figured you were aware of it, just thought I'd post what I found. I'm not entirely sure what the definition of "swing" is, which would seems to be the deciding factor.

Looking forward to the answer!

Dan

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

In my search for an answer to the question I came across what you included above and it answered my question about NOT being penalized for touching the grass on the way back.

However, the question is, if I check my downswing, thereby, NOT having any intent to hit the ball, am I penalized for touching the same grass? I believe that I would be penalized, but I am not sure.

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According to the definitions of "addressing the ball" and a "stroke", I believe there should not be a penalty for either direction.

You "addressed the ball" in the hazard when you took your stance (without grounding your club). Because you voluntarily checked your downswing, you are deemed not to have made a "stroke" - so during the entire action of backswing/checked downswing you were still "addressing the ball". The Note in Rule 13-4 therefore allows you to touch the grass in BOTH directions because during the entire time you were "at address".

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Originally Posted by el tigre

According to the definitions of "addressing the ball" and a "stroke", I believe there should not be a penalty for either direction.

You "addressed the ball" in the hazard when you took your stance (without grounding your club). Because you voluntarily checked your downswing, you are deemed not to have made a "stroke" - so during the entire action of backswing/checked downswing you were still "addressing the ball". The Note in Rule 13-4 therefore allows you to touch the grass in BOTH directions because during the entire time you were "at address".

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In the note that you mentioned it indicates that touching grass is permitted "in the backward movement for the stroke," but does not make reference to what happens during the forward movement of the stroke, even though at the last split second I abandoned the completion of the stroke, and touched the grass.

I will ask a QGA Rules official at the Spring Open qualifier later today, for clarification and then post his ruling.

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

In the note that you mentioned it indicates that touching grass is permitted "in the backward movement for the stroke,"

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Yes, but the full text of the note starts out as "At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke..." - it is this first part of the note that I have put in bold that I think is the determining factor.

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

I will ask a QGA Rules official at the Spring Open qualifier later today, for clarification and then post his ruling.

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It is an excellent question - I would be very interested to hear the ruling.

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

In the note that you mentioned it indicates that touching grass is permitted "in the backward movement for the stroke," but does not make reference to what happens during the forward movement of the stroke, even though at the last split second I abandoned the completion of the stroke, and touched the grass.

I will ask a QGA Rules official at the Spring Open qualifier later today, for clarification and then post his ruling.

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Not to argue semantics here BC MIST, but if nothing else, it serves to give you the exact wording of the question to ask the official. The note in 13-4 states:

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Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing

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I think that's what el tigre was talking about. Since you stopped your downswing, by choice, you may very well still be "at address" rather than taking a stroke.

Just my take, will be interested to see the ruling.

Dan

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Originally Posted by broken27

Not to argue semantics here BC MIST, but if nothing else, it serves to give you the exact wording of the question to ask the official. The note in 13-4 states:



I think that's what el tigre was talking about. Since you stopped your downswing, by choice, you may very well still be "at address" rather than taking a stroke.

Just my take, will be interested to see the ruling.

Dan

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Since "including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke" is an example phrase enclosed in commas, gramatically, it may be removed at anytime without changing the meaning of the sentence. So reading the sentence as "At any time the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing." means no penalty under 13-4.

That being said, it could still be a penalty under 13-2 Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play depending on what happened to the grass.

BTW, anybody know were Gary is? He has been awfully quiet lately.

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

However, the question is, if I check my downswing, thereby, NOT having any intent to hit the ball, am I penalized for touching the same grass? I believe that I would be penalized, but I am not sure.

Thanks for your help.

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In my opinion....... if you touch grass on your downswing (and then check) your intent was to hit the ball. duh!!!

I'm curious on what the RCGA ruling is (not the OVGA ruling)...... :bigcheek

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Originally Posted by The Shtick

In my opinion....... if you touch grass on your downswing (and then check) your intent was to hit the ball. duh!!!

I'm curious on what the RCGA ruling is (not the OVGA ruling)...... :bigcheek

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Ah Shtick.... Always looking for an argument..... :-)

Thanks again for an awesome time this Saturday! My little "foul" with spotting the ball on the green would have made a huge difference!

Dan

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Originally Posted by broken27

Ah Shtick.... Always looking for an argument..... :-)

Thanks again for an awesome time this Saturday! My little "foul" with spotting the ball on the green would have made a huge difference!

Dan

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Hahahaha!!! a first time warning is much better than killing the mood!! :lol2

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Originally Posted by The Shtick

Hahahaha!!! a first time warning is much better than killing the mood!! :lol2

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My problem is that I've never actually read all the rules, and so I just do what I've seen others do. But this is not the thread for this discussion. I appreciated the leniency, although at one point I thought maybe I'd just take the penalty as deserved. What's the difference between 112 and 114?

Cheers,
Dan

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Originally Posted by The Shtick

In my opinion....... if you touch grass on your downswing (and then check) your intent was to hit the ball. duh!!!

I'm curious on what the RCGA ruling is (not the OVGA ruling)...... :bigcheek

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From Definitions of RCGA Rules:

Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

http://www.rcga.org/english/Rules/rules_definitions.asp

So no stroke.

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Originally Posted by broken27

What's the difference between 112 and 114?

Cheers,
Dan

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Ummm.... 2?? That's my super Jeopardy skills talking! :-)

Case in point, we all learn the rules one way or another. What hurts the most is getting called on something that you had no idea about....

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Originally Posted by The Shtick

Ummm.... 2?? That's my super Jeopardy skills talking! :-)

Case in point, we all learn the rules one way or another. What hurts the most is getting called on something that you had no idea about....

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True, but I suppose it's a necessary evil. BTW, do you have the scorecard from our game?

Dan`

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Originally Posted by broken27

True, but I suppose it's a necessary evil. BTW, do you have the scorecard from our game?

Dan`

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Still got it... I won't spread the word..... :bigcheek

Some may say that by stopping your swing, you end ed up clearing some grass, therefore giving you a better swing, maybe a stroke is warranted. I too am interested in the ruling. I say there is a penalty stroke.

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Originally Posted by EDSGOLF

Some may say that by stopping your swing, you end ed up clearing some grass, therefore giving you a better swing, maybe a stroke is warranted. I too am interested in the ruling. I say there is a penalty stroke.

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I think the discerning factor is that if he stops his swing and elects to take the drop (with inherent stroke added), there was no stroke made. If he stops his stroke, and then decides to play it from where it lies, there is a case to be made for a penalty to be added as you suggest.

Damn golf and it's stupidly complex rules system. So much fun, yet so much mental anguish..... :-)

Dan

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Originally Posted by BC MIST

My ball lands in a water hazard and I decide that I want to play it out. I do not ground the club, however, the club touches some long grass that is growing in the hazard, as I take my backswing.

As I start down I decide that I want to stop my swing and do so before contacting the ball, however, the clubhead touches the top of the blades of grass that I contacted as I took my backswing.

While I believe that I am not penalized for contacting the grass on the way back, am I penalized for touching it on my abbreviated downswing?

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There is a Note attached to Rule 13-4 (Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions) stating that AT ANY TIME the player MAY touch grass with the club.

Therefore, there is no penalty.

The wranglings over stroke, swing, at address, downswing, intent to hit, etc. are irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Gary Hill

There is a Note attached to Rule 13-4 (Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions) stating that AT ANY TIME the player MAY touch grass with the club.
Therefore, there is no penalty.
The wranglings over stroke, swing, at address, downswing, intent to hit, etc. are irrelevant.

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Thanks, Gary.

This is exactly what I was told today by a QGA rules official.

I have a question! I was in a similar situation during the Intersectionals. Being in a hazard with tall grass (fescue), I also stopped my downswing before hitting the ball. I was called cause my backswing and/or checked downswing broke some fescue and/or grass. Since I did not actually stroke the ball, I was called for improving my lie in a hazard.

How is BC Mist situation different then mine?

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Originally Posted by mberube

I have a question! I was in a similar situation during the Intersectionals. Being in a hazard with tall grass (fescue), I also stopped my downswing before hitting the ball. I was called cause my backswing and/or checked downswing broke some fescue and/or grass. Since I did not actually stroke the ball, I was called for improving my lie in a hazard.

How is BC Mist situation different then mine?

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Cause mabe he didn't break any grass.

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Originally Posted by Big_duck

Cause mabe he didn't break any grass.

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His original post says tall grass. Commonsense would be that some grass was broken.

I don’t know! I’m confused! :confused

Is it because they did not notice it?

mberube - "my backswing and/or checked downswing broke some fescue and/or grass."

BCMIST - "the clubhead touches the top of the blades of grass"

I think there could be enough of a difference to result in a different ruling.

mberube -

It is basically irrelevant that you were in hazard.

Rule 13-4 Ball in Hazard says, in part, ... before making a stroke...

the player shall not test the hazard
the player shall not touch the ground or water in a hazard
the player shall not touch or move a loose impediment.

None of this applies in your case.

Your question relates solely to Rule 13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play.

You either did or did not improve your lie when you broke some grass before the stroke.

It is not a penalty to break some grass, it is a penalty to improve your lie.

How much grass you broke and how this affected your area of intended swing, I cannot say.

Each individual case would have to be decided on its own merit.

But suffice to say, it is not automatically a penalty, nor is it automatically not a penalty.

Frustrating cause the lie was NOT improved in my opinion. The official explained to me that if my ball would have been in the rough, in playable grass and I would of checked the clearance of my backswing, at that moment my club would of broken a leaf from a branch sticking out from the rough, I would have been called the same penalty.

This is giving me a headache.

Well, whether or not your area of intended swing was improved is always a matter of opinion.

I agree with the official that whether or not you were in a hazard is irelevant.

However, from your statement of facts, it seems that the official was under the impression that breaking A LEAF from the branch would constitute a penalty.

As I stated above, this is not necessarily true.